Advance Faster as a Young Lawyer: Communicate With Extreme Clarity

00:00 Why communication can accelerate a young lawyer’s career

01:22 Why young lawyers struggle with communication

03:51 Overcommunication and undercommunication

04:50 The problem with “throwing the ocean” at a partner

06:44 Why senior attorneys need to teach communication

08:25 How poor communication affects trust and opportunity

10:36 Responsiveness and the importance of being available

13:56 Why undercommunication creates assumptions

15:37 Communication habits that build trust

17:03 How senior attorneys should communicate with younger lawyers

18:13 Ask people how they prefer to communicate

19:24 Be a sieve, not a funnel

20:00 Headline, context, and recommendation

21:52 Why long emails fail

23:55 How to communicate with extreme clarity

25:07 Confidence, fear, and making recommendations

27:14 Creating space before you respond

29:20 The CLEAR communication framework

30:12 Understanding context and your audience

31:39 Asking questions and listening to understand

34:43 Responding with intention

36:26 Showing that you care about what matters

38:11 Know your audience

39:36 Stop ghosting your boss

41:52 How often should you give updates?

43:13 How to communicate bad news

46:01 The mistake of waiting to be told what to do

47:52 What senior attorneys can do to develop younger lawyers

51:15 Training, development, and emotional intelligence

52:18 What good coaching looks like

53:56 Why communication is a career advantage

55:43 Habits that make young lawyers seem more senior

57:14 The one communication habit to improve tomorrow

58:08 Workplace Confessions: Behind Closed Doors

01:01:13 Closing thoughts

Jason Marsh (00:00)
On today's show, Dawn Andrews, former Big Law and Fortune 500 lawyer, and now an executive coach who helps legal professionals and law firm leaders communicate and perform more effectively. We'll be talking about how young lawyers can communicate more clearly to build trust with senior attorneys, earn greater responsibility, and accelerate their careers, and how senior attorneys can cultivate those skills instead of expecting young lawyers to figure them out on their own.

Dawn Andrews (00:28)
If you can't make something that's complicated simple, you're not communicating in an effective way.

when you just throw the ocean at something, you are conveying that you don't understand what's important.

That you don't value the person's time that you're communicating with. And it doesn't convey the abilities that you have. It shows that you lack confidence.

Jason Marsh (00:55)
Welcome to the Alpha Lawyer podcast, a show dedicated to exploring what makes law firms thrive. I'm your host, Jason Marsh. Join me as I interview some of the smartest thought leaders and accomplished law firm owners in our space. Together, we'll dive deep into law firm operations, marketing, technology, finance, and everything else you need to build an incredible firm that allows you to live your best life.

Jason Marsh (01:22)
Hello, welcome back to the Alpha Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Marsh, and joining me today is Dawn Andrews. Hi, Dawn, great to have you here.

Dawn Andrews (01:30)
Hi Jason, thanks for having me.

Jason Marsh (01:32)
Yeah, that's awesome. So today we're gonna be talking about how newer lawyers communicate inside a law firm and why getting that right can really have a big impact on how quickly they're able to build trust and ultimately advance their careers. Because as you write about, this isn't about writing better emails or sounding more professional. It's really about work efficiency, creating a better client experience, and whether a new lawyer is seen as someone who makes everyone's job easier or harder. So

You recently wrote an article in Law Practice Today, an ABA publication that's aimed in part at newer attorneys, but as I was reading it, I think this conversation is just as important for senior lawyers and law firm leaders because firms often expect people to figure this stuff out on their own and instead of actually teaching it and then kind of wonder why they're not getting the things that they want. So today I want to get a little bit into where these newer lawyers tend to struggle, what good communication actually looks like inside a firm and what senior

Lawyers and firm leaders can do to help them get better at it. So before we get into all the the nuances of that, let me introduce you. I'm here with Dawn Andrews. Dawn is a lawyer and an executive coach. She spent 25 years practicing law, including seven years at a large international firm, and another 18 at a fortune.

500 companies in leadership roles focused on labor, employment, ethics, workplace, culture, and diversity and inclusion. And today she helps prof legal professionals at every level, from associates to firm owners and leaders, how to communicate better, lead better, and perform at a higher level. So she brings a really great perspective to this conversation from both the legal and leadership sides. So Dawn, in your article, you talk about how newer lawyers

And honestly, some senior ones as well. But how newer lawyers are expected to communicate well without ever really being taught how, and this isn't necessarily something they learn in law school. And the thing is, communication is going to affect how senior lawyers perceive their judgment, reliability, their maturity in some cases, but ultimately whether they can trust them with more responsibility. So

Why do so many newer lawyers struggle with communication inside law firm firms, ev even when they're otherwise very capable lawyers?

Dawn Andrews (03:51)
Yeah, I think it's it's simply that they haven't yet had the experience to know what's important and how to communicate that out. So there's a tendency to overcommunicate or under communicate that really impacts their effectiveness as attorneys.

Jason Marsh (04:12)
Yeah, and we're gonna get into some of the frameworks that you've created because because that is an interesting thing, right? Overcommunication, right? And I think a lot of that can come come from, fear or nervousness. But as a leader or, a manager, sometimes you're just like, can you just get to the point? you're in, as a leader or manager, you're inundated with hundreds of emails all day long. So when you have a junior lawyer coming to you, you want them to get to the point. And so we'll we'll talk a little bit, more about how to do those things. But

in addition to not getting to the point or over communicating in some way, are there are there just some simple where areas where you see these young lawyers tend to kinda get it wrong most often?

Dawn Andrews (04:50)
Yeah, it I think in the case of over explaining, they're coming forward with far too much information and it's not the right information. So they're just throwing the the ocean at the problem or the person instead of really thinking about what their listener needs to know. And anyone who has worked for a law firm partner or a general counsel can tell you they don't have

Time for you.

Jason Marsh (05:18)
No.

Dawn Andrews (05:19)
I mean, it's n it's not fair, it's not advisable, it's not great leadership, but they don't have time. and they have less time for folks they perceive as not serious or not prepared. And when you show up and you have a notebook and you're writing down every word that the person says and you don't demonstrate discernment in what you communicate back, I think you're conveying that you don't really know what you're doing and then they

They treat you like you don't know what you're doing. When you very well may know what you're doing and just not be able to convey that.

Jason Marsh (05:51)
Yeah, that and that's just the point. And this is exactly why I wanted to talk to you. Because yes, that it's not to say you don't. You do know what you're doing. You are a bright individual. You've done a ton of school. It's not hard, it's not easy to become an attorney and pass the bar. So these are bright people. It's just how do you fine-tune the communication? I know when I was starting my career, somebody once told me, like, what you want to do is, a young professional, be bright and be gone. Like, don't belabor the point. Just just say what you need to say.

And get out of there. So the other's flip side of this, as I'm reading your article that I wonder is, as I mentioned, this this isn't necessarily something you're taught in law school. So how much of the problem that we're talking about here really is from senior attorneys or law firm owners or leaders assuming they should already know all these things and then failing to teach what them, what to them is good communication. Teach them what they want.

Dawn Andrews (06:44)
Yeah, this is this is such a common fallacy and I think we're all guilty of it at at various places in life. It's not unique to attorneys, let alone senior attorneys. But we forget that what we know and what we've learned about succinct communication came as a result of decades of experience and making mistakes. And we are less tolerant than we should be when people are starting out that

There, we were them once too, but we've forgotten that. We think we, in our own minds, we were we knew everything we know now the whole time, and that's just not the case. So I think it's important for senior attorneys to put themselves in the shoes of junior attorneys and remember what is reasonable and age appropriate and education and experience appropriate and gauge their abilities based on that instead of discounting them because they don't.

demonstrate the efficiency of a seventh or eighth year attorney or something, or frankly someone in their own practice area, it it applies across disciplines as well. so that's probably the main thing.

Jason Marsh (07:51)
Yeah, and that I

think and that's fair because th that I think applies in any relationship, like a like a romantic relationship, personal relationship. You you really need to put yourself in the other person's shoes from time to time, understand where they're coming from, and and I think that solves a lot of communication problems. But in terms of what we're talking about, what are the consequences for both a newer lawyer, even a great lawyer, when they don't get this right early on?

And and then how that affects the firm as a whole. 'Cause again, I think this is a two way street and and it's there's there's value for everybody in getting this right.

Dawn Andrews (08:25)
Yeah, such a great question. I mean I I think the consequences are significant and it it it definitely applies to communication, but it applies to all skills that young attorneys need to develop. I think when when more senior attorneys aren't willing to spend the time to help newer attorneys develop good communication skills,

They have lost an effective team member because they don't have confidence in that in the person and the person feels that and and shows up in the way they're perceived instead of the way that they actually are and what they're capable of. And then also you're losing the ability to use this person and their network to expand your client base as a firm. And I mean, I've definitely worked on cases where I got along far better with the client than the partners I worked for, but

Because

I wasn't the, the main attorney on the case or what have you, that contribution was downplayed or or underappreciated and I felt that deeply. And so it, it played a factor in how long I stayed at the firm or how how willing I was to work those really long hours with specific partners.

Jason Marsh (09:41)
Yeah, that's

Dawn Andrews (09:41)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (09:42)
a yeah, yeah, no, that's a great point. And and it's a perfect setup for the next thing I wanna get into. And that's just the idea of building trust, right, as as a skill, because you've made the point that just communication is gonna shape a young lawyer's reputation pretty quickly, as a lot of it is gonna come down to trust in the sense that senior lawyers they wanna know when they hand something off, they're not gonna have to chase you down, wonder where things stand, ask for status updates or fix problems that you've created.

And the way you communicate becomes a big part of whether people see you as like you're describing, as someone who has value to what the overall objectives are and that they can rely on you. So, what are some of the most important communication habits that you feel, both in terms of your experience and what you teach now, but that are gonna make an attorney feel trustworthy and most importantly, like easy to work with?

Dawn Andrews (10:36)
Yeah. This is such a timely question. and it it probably is a good time to talk about undercommunication because I coach a lot of senior attorneys and their biggest complaint about newer attorneys is that they aren't available. And there's a lot of, they cast a lot of aspersions on this generation, this new generation, Gen Z, that somehow they don't have good work ethic.

because they're not butts and seats like we were and they're not, working eighty hour weeks without question. they have boundaries. Like boundaries are a bad word now. We really we're all just jealous,

Jason Marsh (11:10)
Boundaries.

Dawn Andrews (11:11)
They that they care about themselves more than we thought we could. So I think the main thing and th this is compounded by the way in with the fact that so many of us are working working virtually. the the pandemic turned everything on its head and it really forced the

the generation above ours, the baby boomers, to confront the newer generations, the young millennials and the Gen Z folks in the workplace and address this question of can I contribute if I'm not right in front of your face? can you see my contribution? The way that senior lawyers can see your contribution as a a young attorney is through your presence. And if you don't work in office, and I'm not suggesting you need to, I'm the last person to suggest that, you have to do it other ways.

And

one of those ways is your responsiveness and payment for the fact that you can work from home in your pajamas and throw a load of laundry in and make yourself a sandwich instead of having to pack one is that you are very accessible and you're very responsive. So even if your response is, I haven't gotten to that yet, but I'll commit to getting to it in the next 24 hours, you have to say something. And I think fear sometimes paralyzes younger attorneys, they don't know.

what to say or how to say it, so they say nothing. And that is the biggest cause of lack of trust when it comes to managing up. I mean, when I was in-house as an attorney and I used external counsel, I my primary the primary quality I was looking for in my outside counsel is I want my business issues to matter as much as to you as they do to me. So demonstrate to me that you care as much as I do about this issue.

Well, senior attorneys want the same thing from junior attorneys. They want to know that you care, that you get it, that you understand why discovery deadlines are important, why MSJ deadlines are important, why contract terms are important, and that you are owning that in the same way that they do. That's how you build trust. It's the single easiest way.

Jason Marsh (13:14)
Yeah, and you bring up such an important point that I had not even considered as I was reading through your article. And that's that's virtual work, right? so much more important when you're just because I'm reading this thinking, you're present in the office, you stand in the doorway waiting. But no, that's not really how this always works. Now it's one thing if you're a senior attorney working from home, you've proven yourself, people already know you and trust you, but as that young lawyer, you don't have any of that. And so how you're communicating and the frequency of your communication.

is gonna tell everybody everything. And so, how important are proactive updates or as you mentioned, just simply an acknowledge you receive something and you're working on it, even though you don't necessarily have the right, the full answer yet.

Dawn Andrews (13:56)
Yeah. Honestly, it's everything. I mean, even if your communication style is to overcommunicate, that is better than undercommunicating. Undercommunicating leaves too much space in a relationship. And we're humans. So we fill that space with you don't get it, you don't care, you're not committed, you don't earn the salary that we pay you, the exorbitant salary we pay you, right? They always think they're paying us too much. and and that's just it's not typically even true.

There are typically other reasons, but as humans, we don't we don't allow for that. We don't seek that out. No partner or general counsel is gonna call a second or third year attorney and say, Hey, I haven't heard from you in a day or two. Like, what's happening on your end? what am I missing in this gap in communication? they're not. They're just gonna make assumptions about you. And y once you develop a reputation for poor communication, you can't shake it. The reputation you develop in the first three, four years of your practice stays with you forever.

So

Jason Marsh (14:53)
Yeah, I bet. And and and

when when you've gone like radio silent and you do have a partner that's waiting, waiting, waiting, like you say, they're not necessarily I mean, listen, it may get to a point, what's going on here, but it's gotta go a little long for that to happen. And the thing that I think is happening in the background, there's resentment that's building up.

Dawn Andrews (15:12)
yeah.

Jason Marsh (15:13)
And I think in any relationship, when a resent when resentment starts to build

Every you're it's you're screwed. It it's it's very hard to unwind that even if you fix everything and become a lot better. yeah, I some thing and it's like so with that, what what are some things that younger lawyers listening to this can do that'll help a senior lawyer start thinking, I wanna give this person more responsibility.

Dawn Andrews (15:37)
Yeah. I think there are some basic things. one is what we've talked about. It be be responsive, even if your response is, I got your message, thank you. and the other thing is to communicate in a way that demonstrates that you understand how to troubleshoot an issue. So if you have let's take the discovery responses because they're the bane of everyone's existence. So you have discovery responses due, you have drafts that

That the partner needs to review before they go to the client. Showing that you understand that the partner needs more than 24 hours to review responses that need to get to the client a week ahead of deadline so they can review it with all the bureaucracy they deal with internally goes such a long way toward building trust. But I also want to make sure, I think we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about the duty that senior attorneys have to communicate.

With junior attorneys in a way that they can understand and receive. Because I also coach mid-level and more junior attorneys who say things to me like, the partners think they can just call me on my phone day and night. No one talks on the phone. And I know that to be true. Like people these days, me included, I don't want to talk on the phone. I don't want to. I'm happy to schedule a call with you, hop on a Zoom call, we can teams, we can message, we can whatever, but God don't

Don't pick up the phone and call me. They view that as cold calling, like a telemarketer is

Jason Marsh (17:02)
Yeah.

Dawn Andrews (17:03)
calling them. It's very disruptive to them. So if you can half way

Jason Marsh (17:06)
And it is, that is disruptive. And and

I bet if if the junior attorney did the same exact thing to the senior attorney, they'd probably get even more pissed off. Like, what do you think? I'm just available to you to answer your questions anytime?

Dawn Andrews (17:17)
Yeah. Yeah, so be responsive if you're the junior attorney, be responsive and and demonstrate your availability. But if you're the senior attorney, remember who your audience is. And because for sure, even if you're, let's assume worst case scenario, you don't care that the junior attorney is gonna react poorly to you, you have clients the same age as these junior attorneys, and for sure they're going to respond poorly to this. So

Learning how to communicate across levels and experiences in and and generations, frankly, is is critically important.

Jason Marsh (17:50)
Yeah, this this

is very much a generational thing. And is it worth just having a conversation up front, whether whether you're the junior attorney or the senior appropriate and just saying, How do we how do you like to be communicated with, right? It may be just email me, you can call me, however it is, but you're getting that out of the way up front and then that's what you live by, right? is that something that you recommend? I mean that seems like a

Dawn Andrews (18:13)
Yes. So it

it sounds so simple, right? But no one's doing it. No one is doing it. And it's it's something

Jason Marsh (18:20)
Right, 'cause they probably

just jump right into the substance of whatever the matter is that they're dealing with.

Dawn Andrews (18:23)
Yeah. Well and they treat

everyone the same. They assume that, because I can teams or text this one partner, all partners allow that and that just isn't the case. It's one of the first lessons I learned in corporate America. You have to ask people what their communication preferences are and then honor them or you won't get the best out of them. And they might not like you. Those r resentments start to build and they're not easily eradicated.

Jason Marsh (18:46)
Yeah, yeah, we want to avoid the resentment for sure. so you mentioned something that that I liked and and you you have this simple framework called Clear that we're gonna get to. but before we get into that specific thing, there was something you said that I really liked, and it's the idea of being a sieve, not a funnel. this this idea that a good lawyer shouldn't be just be passing information along, right? They should filter it, make sense of it.

make it more useful for whoever's receiving it and and like a common investor term is add value to it, right? you want to improve the situation. So what does it mean for a newer lawyer to be a Civ instead of a funnel?

Dawn Andrews (19:24)
Yeah, it it's it is so important. And I'm so glad you you honed in on this ex this little analogy, if you will, or personification of a sieve. I don't know what we're talking about, but so the idea here is that you want to demonstrate that you have independent judgment and discretion. This is how you show discernment, which is how you show maturity and ability as an attorney. If you ask the client to give you

all of the data regarding the employ employment of XYZ plaintiff and then you just turn and hand that to the partner, all you've done is acted as an intermediary, then you're no different than a than a courier. You need to sift through that information, understand what's relevant and salient, and pull out the material information and give that to the partner efficiently. So one

Very short framework, it's a it's a summary of the clear framework that I recommend to all my clients is a three-part framework with for every conversation you're having with someone that you need to demonstrate your maturity and your seriousness and your knowledge, start with the headline. We need to decide what motions alumni to file. Okay. And then it's context. we have two weeks to trial, these are the salient issues in the case, and then you make your recommendation, which is step three.

I

recommend we do the following because junior attorneys sometimes show up and just dump a bunch of information on the partner and they don't make a recommendation. And it's like, well, what do I need you for? AI can do a better job than that. Right. Right.

Jason Marsh (21:00)
Right. It's like am I supposed to do your job for you? What what are you here to do? Right? You're supposed to f sift through

this and figure out what the course of action is.

Dawn Andrews (21:08)
Don't make me hold your hand. You can be wrong. Make your recommendation and I'll tell you it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. But make your recommendation because otherwise you're just not a member of the team.

Jason Marsh (21:20)
I and I like that. And I want to go through that again because you start with the headline, obviously, right? Provide some context, make your recommendation versus what I think some people do at times, they're gonna give you, they're gonna give you this massive wind up, then maybe get to the question and then not have who knows, but it's just a whole big thing you've got to read versus, yeah, just give me, give me the point that we're getting to here and and and then let's just make it quick. So so yeah, I really like that.

that that way of thinking.

Dawn Andrews (21:52)
That this is a great point maybe to talk to about modes of communication because what I see a lot of and what I've seen a lot of for years is very long emails with lots of attachments. and no one has time to read that. If you don't have time to read a long email from me, why would I have time to read one from you? Email is for communications that are like three sentences long or f or five bullet points.

really really short communications. Teams messages even shorter. So if you send me a five-page email, single space with all your thoughts on an issue, odds are almost a hundred percent I'm not I'm not going to read it. And if I read it it's not going to be in its entirety. So to then expect that I've read all of that and reached whatever conclusions you think I should, i you're just wasting your time and my time and everybody else's time. So

that whole that old adage keep it simple, stupid, is is the deal. That's it in a nutshell. If you can't make something that's complicated simple, you're not communicating in an effective way.

And it's garbage in, garbage out. So you send me that long email and you're looking for an answer from me, my answer is gonna be just about as good as that long rambling email.

Jason Marsh (23:10)
Yeah, and and so

maybe for a younger attorney listening to this, this this is a relief, like because I do think there are people that think sending you the big long thing with all the attachments is is showing I put in the work here. I really thought through all this stuff, not really thinking about somebody that's busy who doesn't even have time to go through it. So as you say, you just summarize it, distill everything down. You can get into the details or people can ask follow up questions. but I th but I think that's really important, right? Like what do you say for people that are just

they think they need to, send these big long opuses, right? And it's being received as what is it? There's like some saying like, I didn't I didn't have time to write, write something short. So I wrote a really long thing to you. And now, and now you're just dumping that overhead into somebody else's lap.

Dawn Andrews (23:55)
Exactly. it is harder to be succinct by far in writing and everything else. so I think the main takeaway there is it what would you want to know in that person's shoes? I mean, p try and put yourself in the partner's shoes or the client's shoes. What three things do they need to know? And someone said this to me at work and I wish I could remember who it was, but they basically said

With every communication, whether it's verbal or an email, imagine you're communicating with the CEO of a company or shoot, say the president of a country if you want, and they're about to board plane and they're not gonna have any kind of access. What would you say? That should be the mode of communication. Because when you just throw the ocean at something, you are conveying that you don't understand what's important.

That you don't value the person's time that you're communicating with. And it just doesn't convey the abilities that you have. It shows that you lack confidence.

And part of confidence is faking it till you make it. So when you communicate

Jason Marsh (25:06)
Yeah.

Dawn Andrews (25:07)
succinctly and you take that risk and say, here's my recommendation, prove me wrong, you're demonstrating that you have some trust in yourself. And

My as a coach, I probably didn't have this insight as an attorney, but as a coach, my guidance to people it could be summed up as compassionate detachment, which means put the best you out there in the world and let the chips fall. So this three-part communication framework is exactly that. Put your recommendation out there with the important facts and let people make a decision about it on their own. Instead of throwing everything in the universe at them.

hoping that somewhere in there they'll they'll see that you work hard or that you you did all this stuff. Well all this stuff doesn't get it across the finish line, right?

Jason Marsh (25:52)
Yeah, and and I'm just trying to be empathetic for the people that are doing that and and not that they're not necessarily capable of taking a position and but but they don't feel confident. They're not far enough along in their career, they don't have enough experience to feel so they're afraid.

Dawn Andrews (26:06)
Yeah, they're they're afraid and understandably and we've all been there. it I have so much empathy for that because I I've done it. In fact, I'll tell you, here was my law school experience. Every one of my case books was just solid yellow highlighting because I didn't know what was important. And I remember showing one of my case books to someone and they said, interesting highlighting technique. What are you trying to accomplish? And I was like, I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know what's important. I don't know what I'm supposed to know.

I don't know how to outline. I can't figure this stuff out. And and there's there's a lot of that, but I think part of it is is taking the time to think critically. And when you're anxious and when you're fearful, you are reactive. And that's really not helpful for anybody. Like leaders or otherwise, those leaders who are impatient with junior attorneys and snap at them, they're being reactive too. So your your first job is to get your nervous system under control.

so that you can create space between impetus and response so that you can exercise agency and show that you have that discretion and judgment that attorneys are expected to have.

Jason Marsh (27:14)
And so if I'm if I can distill this down terms of what I'm hearing, for someone that's afraid, you're far better off trying to take a position on something and being totally wrong than trying to hide behind some long email with all the attachments. It that's just gonna add work and frustration to the person on the other end. Would would you agree with that?

Dawn Andrews (27:34)
I agree with that wholeheartedly.

Jason Marsh (27:37)
and and then the other side of that is it does make it a lot easier for the attorney to teach you, th okay, I I appreciate you took a point here, you're wrong, that whatever it is, but now there's a a a teaching opportunity there versus I don't even know where to start with this stuff because I

I mean, just as an example, I I have an IT person, right? it handles all I am terrified every time I have a problem that I have to email him this because I am going to get back the biggest wall of text ex and I don't want any of that. I just want to know you're on it and you're gonna fix it, or if there's something further you need from me. But it it like it upsets me. And and this is someone I've known and I'm actually good friends with for a long time. Well, like and I've told them over and over, like, can you just

I don't care about any this and I I'm honest. I'm like, I don't even read it. I don't even read it. I'm just asking and so anyway, just to I imagine there are plenty of attorneys that are dealing with far more complex things than, the minor, IT things I'm talking about.

Dawn Andrews (28:32)
Yeah. That that is such a great example though, because that's exactly what happens. It's like what

Jason Marsh (28:37)
Yeah. So okay, so let's

talk about your clear framework. It's, slightly more elaborate than the other one. but but it is but it's still pretty simple. And I and I like frameworks, right? Because they're not scripts. They they give people a chance to make it their own. They just have a path that they can follow. and and I think this is important, for more senior attorneys or leaders to teach the younger lawyers that way instead of just telling them, Hey, I I need you to communicate better.

Can we walk through the the clear framework and and how a newer attorney should use this in their practice? in the step by step, and you don't have to go too deep into each, but just kind of summarize each of those letters for for clear.

Dawn Andrews (29:17)
Yes, definitely.

Jason Marsh (29:18)
I know the first one is clarify.

Dawn Andrews (29:20)
Yeah, so the first step in the CLEAR framework and and it's C-L-E-A-R, the word clear, is to clarify your purpose. This is this is what you do in advance of the communication, regardless of its form, whether it's Teams, text, email, or in person, you have to ask yourself first, what is the purpose of this communication? What is this person asking me? And in order to do that, you have to listen to understand.

And when you're you come into the partner's office or you hop on a call with them and you write down every word they say, you're not doing this. To do this, you have to really listen to what they're asking you. And when you don't understand it, ask questions so that you really know what you're setting out to do, because otherwise you'll just run around like a chicken with its head cut off and you won't accomplish anything. And that's frustrating for people, including you. the second

Jason Marsh (30:11)
Course.

Dawn Andrews (30:12)
piece is to look at the context. So we talked a little bit.

About this, when we talked about the three-part framework, here you ask yourself who's the audience? What do they already know? What's the urgency? What kind of communication do they prefer? Because you've had that conversation ahead of time, and what do they need from me right now? So this is a really important step because it demonstrates your understanding of materiality. Like what is the issue here? And it includes things like dumbing it down.

For an audience that won't understand specificity. you don't want to start citing IRS code sections at somebody who just needs to know if they have a tax deadline coming up. It's not helpful. So that's part of that. The E is for editing for your audience. So that is a lot about n like reading the room. So here you think about things like

w what's the appropriate mode of communication. If it's a sentence or two, a text or an instant message are is probably fine. If it's an email, it should never be longer than a paragraph. And paragraphs are basically three or four sentences long. So here I I offer this example that I shared about, if this person you're trying to talk to is hopping on a plane, how much time do they really have to listen? Well how how can you communicate in a way they can understand? and then the A is for asking questions. yeah, did you want to ask

Jason Marsh (31:35)
Well, y well, just just to stay with that one really

quickly, because you you gave a good

Dawn Andrews (31:39)
Yeah, sure.

Jason Marsh (31:39)
example in there and and and it and and the example is someone asks you to provide an update on the settlement discussions. The conclusion or the next thing is the parties are fifty grand apart. Right? That's the headline, right, that you talked about before. You can get into the context and and and make your assessment or conclusion on that. But I think that's a good way to say, like, yeah, that this is just giving the person the protein that they need.

Dawn Andrews (32:03)
Exactly.

And that depends on who the person is you're communicating with. does the person who you're communicating with know what case you're talking about? You might need to start with in the case of Smith versus Jones, you asked me to provide an update on settlement discussions. how many how many claims are we talking about? how many cases? You have to be specific to the degree that the listener needs to know to understand your message.

Jason Marsh (32:26)
Right. And

then they can always ask more questions. really? Okay, they're fifty grand apart. Why? Where what is it? What's the, specific hang up or the issue that they're hanging that, that difference on.

Dawn Andrews (32:38)
Yeah, that's right. Okay, the next

Jason Marsh (32:39)
All right, so so the next one, A.

Dawn Andrews (32:41)
one is the A for asking questions. And here I include listening to understand. And I want to emphasize that this goes both ways. Because I've observed from my own experience when I was a senior attorney, and also when I was a junior attorney on the other side of the of the table, that oftentimes we're just talking past each other. the senior attorney might be speaking to you in

in a way that impli implies a bunch of things. They might there might be communicating in a way that assumes a bunch of things about what and don't know. And sometimes this results in people just talking past each other. So regardless of whether you're the senior attorney or the junior attorney or the client here, listening for what the person's might be trying to tell you is really important because they might just use different wording

than you do. And so if you can stay present with the person who's speaking and listen only to what they're saying instead of the voice in your head that's telling you how to respond next, you'll

Jason Marsh (33:41)
Yeah.

Dawn Andrews (33:42)
have far better experiences communicating with people and you'll save a lot of time. Because you won't have to circle back.

Jason Marsh (33:48)
Yeah, that and that but

that really is a skill you have to be intentional about. I mean you really have to be thoughtful about really listening. And and again, this this type of thing goes across, all of communication, personal, professional, et cetera, is really hearing what people are saying and not just kind of teeing up in your mind what you're gonna jump in with the second they stop talking.

Dawn Andrews (34:09)
Mm. That's exactly right. And it's it's really hard because a lot of us have internalized the idea that what we have to say is more important than the person we're speaking with. And that should just never be assumed. That's the safe the safest way is just to assume that you don't know what the person's gonna say and that it could add incredible value, or that the exchange itself might be valuable for reasons you cannot see today that down the road will become really apparent.

Jason Marsh (34:38)
Okay, so last one in the in the clear framework, we've got the R.

Dawn Andrews (34:43)
Yes, the R is for responding with intention. So this goes back to creating enough space to think about how you want to respond before you do. And in the moment, on the spot, whether you're in court or in a negotiation or in the partner's office, this can be the space can be created and you can create it a number of different ways. One way is through your breath. You can just pause.

Before answering and take a couple slow deep breaths, which will allow your brain to come online and help you think more quickly. A second tip is to speak slowly so that you can breathe as you're speaking, because that also allows you to think as you're speaking. And then the final thing is if you don't know, buy yourself time. So if you don't know the answer, it's always okay to say, at this point I don't know, but

I'll circle back or my current thinking is X, but I'd like some more time to noodle on that before we come back. And that that will just leave people knowing that you care about the thoroughness and veracity of of what you're saying. And then they'll have more respect for you.

Jason Marsh (35:58)
Yeah, and and you've said this earlier, showing demonstrating that you care at the level that they care is just such a critical detail, right? And and and how you convey that. I mean, it it can be done in a lot of different ways, but I think that's a good example. Like this is my thinking here, but I know this is an important issue. Yeah, I want to do a little I need another day to do a little bit more thinking or research on this. but but how important is that when someone feels like, hey, they they actually do care about this as much as I care?

Dawn Andrews (36:26)
Yeah, it takes a load off, I mean, think about it at home when you're worried about something and your partner is dismissive of it because it's not a concern to them. You just feel alone with it. And that applies everywhere. So if your partner is worried that the client, isn't gonna get the discovery responses back to you on time with their signed declaration and you're like, what if I have a

I have a kayak waiting for me in the bay. that's

not going to go over well. And so, but if instead you say, that sucks. Let me see what I can do to reach them, or how can I help? This sounds awful. just show some understanding and compassion. I think it goes a long way because we tend to react better to people we think identify with us and our needs and thoughts better than we do others. So this is a sneaky way to do that.

Jason Marsh (37:17)
Yeah, and and

and all of that just goes back to what we're really talking about here is just the building of the trust. When you can demonstrate that you really care about the thing that, your boss, your senior attorneys has you working on, they're gonna love that. They're gonna love working with you. They're like this person, they give a shit. Like and and we've all worked in environments where we're working with somebody, whether they're working, alongside of us or below us, and you're like

I'm not sure they actually care about any of this stuff. And it really is frustrating and goes back to kind of the idea of resentment is going to start to build around that. Now, when we talk about this framework, is there any particular area that you think these younger lawyers are are overlooking most often? So so we can say, okay, we've got this framework, but this is the one you really need to kind of think about because this is where people go us astray often. And and all of these points I think are are important.

Dawn Andrews (38:11)
Yeah,

I think probably the biggest one is knowing your audience. tailoring your communication for your audience. and this is something that all my clients struggle with and that frankly I struggle with. it because it requires perspective taking, you have to stop and think, okay, I'm not me right now, I'm Jason. What does Jason need from me? What are his worries? What are his concerns? Who's putting pressure? Who's got their thumb on Jason?

that might be causing him to react this way to me and what can I do about that, if anything. it my recommendation for junior attorneys is be twice the communicator you wish your partner or your general counsel or your client was. Because we know they have failings. We're not saying that you suck and they don't. We're saying we can all be better at this. let's work on it.

Jason Marsh (38:59)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I think that's great advice. Again, just put yourself in their shoes and really try to understand what they need. and again, it'll it'll it'll do a lot for your own career. what I think one of the simplest things, right, new lawyers can do is also one of the things senior lawyers complain about the most. And so I wanted to we touched on this, but I really want to talk about it. It's just keeping people updated, right? It's the idea if a deadline is slipping, you're, I don't know, you hit a roadblock, maybe you need some more time.

it's just this idea that silence creates a ton of anxiety and just a quick heads up can solve so many things.

Dawn Andrews (39:36)
Yeah. I mean, let's put it in dating terms, because that's something that I think due to social media we all have some conception of. You would not ghost somebody that you were actually interested in, right? You don't put them on red. I can't believe that's even a term, but it really is. So why are you doing that to your partners? I mean, don't let your fear override good communication. And sometimes that's just really as simple as being like, I'm here.

I got this email. In the world of millions of emails coming your way, I got this one. Don't worry, I'm on it.

Jason Marsh (40:11)
Yeah,

I think yeah, that that really not ghosting your boss, right? Like I mean, I think that

Dawn Andrews (40:17)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (40:17)
that really sums it up, right? Especially for younger lawyers. We all know what ghosting is and maybe in certain contexts you're fine to do it, but in the workplace, probably not the best idea in the same way as you point out. If it's someone you are genuinely interested in, you're not gonna ghost them.

Dawn Andrews (40:32)
Right. And maybe it's never okay, I mean, we're also conflict avoidant, but if we got in the habit of being clear with people and saying, like, hey, rather than ghost you, I'd like to let that I just don't see a love connection, and I wish you the best, that doesn't cost you anything. And then that person's not spinning and swirling, not knowing, and in the legal context, there's a lot writing on this. If you have a summary d judgment deadline, I'll just speak to that because I'm a former litigator.

And it's approaching and you're you're you're the partner and you're watching the time tick down for you to review before it goes to client, and then your time to review is gone, and now you're cutting into the client's review time and you could lose the client because of that, and then it's due and you still don't have it in hand and you're just watching a malpractice claim come your way, it's terrifying.

Jason Marsh (41:21)
Yeah, so like the idea here, not ghosting or being communicative, certainly an act of kindness, but it's also there's stakes here. This is a professional situation. There's real stakes that you just described. So is is there a scenario where I don't know, like a a cadence or a frequency of giving updates without becoming annoying, right? 'Cause you can you could see that being a thing in dating as well. Be damn, this this guy, this guy just will not stop. Like, so

Dawn Andrews (41:46)
He's

too available. Yeah.

Jason Marsh (41:49)
Yeah. Yeah. So how does that look?

Dawn Andrews (41:52)
Yeah. No, that's a really great question. And I think it can be, it can be a problem. So my recommendation is for updates that aren't time sensitive, save them for a weekly one-on-one. And what I typically do when I'm working for someone and and the the best employees who've ever worked for me do this consistently, I just keep a list. Here's

Here are all the things I need to talk to Jason about at our one-on-one on Friday. When something time sensitive comes up, like I know I promised you that draft of that motion by tomorrow, but guess what? My dog died, and I'm not going to get it to you for two more days. that requires an immediate communication, like succinctly, with action steps. Like this came up, which means I can't get this to you by the X date.

But here's when I can get it to you. Don't make your delays somebody else's emergency. because you wouldn't like being treated that way yourself. So why would you treat somebody else like that?

Jason Marsh (42:52)
And so yeah, so when when it comes to bad news, right? We're talking a lot about okay, we're we're trying to add value, we're we're trying to build trust with with the relationships, what they're they're bad news. Stuff happens, right? This is just the nature of it. if you're gonna miss a deadline or there's a problem you can't solve, what is the right way to communicate that? And obviously the sooner the better, right? But what else?

Dawn Andrews (43:13)
sooner rather than later and with with a recourse. So, the worst thing that ever happened to me professionally is there were I had a complicated ERISA case that I was defending and I misunderstood one of the procedural requirements and so we missed a filing deadline and it was my fault. And honestly worst day of my life, I will never forget it. I was just apoplectic over this. But rather than

swirl in my fear and hide under my bed, which is what I wanted to do. I reached out immediately to the partner I was working for and said, Mea culpa, I I blew it on this. But then I had a recommended solution. I didn't just leave it in her hands to solve the problem for me. I took my lumps and I said, what if we do this to solve the problem? And we we were able to come up with a solution that made it a non-issue. But man

It's really painful when you have to pick up the phone, but you have to pick up the phone. I mean, you have a obligation under the rules of professional conduct to communicate consistently and clearly with competence. And if you're just hiding under your bed you're not doing that. So

Jason Marsh (44:24)
Yeah, it it really is so important. I mean I I think back to when I was younger, I was working in in this bar and I I don't know, I managed to break like a really expensive bottle of tequila and I was terrified of telling the owner. but I did. I I said listen, I I don't know, I was clean it. I don't know what I was actually doing to break it, but I broke it. I'm really sorry. I'm like

I'll buy another one, I'll pay for it. He said, Don't worry about it. It happens. And he understood. He probably wasn't happy about it. But at the end of the day, problems come up. Most problems are fixable. And obviously the sooner you get ahead of these things, the better. And again, it goes back to trust. If if you're gonna be up front, people are gonna trust you. he screwed something up, but he came to me first. I didn't find out about this later. Cause I was thinking, maybe I can just like

disappear and they whoever works next will get blamed for it. And I just thought, well, let me just fess up to this. And I think it did. Eventually it just built trust with that person. whatever. It's just a bartending job. But but but that is a lesson I think that that I took with me. So, whether I had clients or investors or partners or when something screws up, I I have to get up front, get, get out ahead of it, be upfront about it as possible, whether they're going to like this news or not. All right. So

you y you took a poll, right? kind of an informal poll, but you're asking senior attorneys the things that drive them crazy when they're working with newer lawyers, right? And so s some of the answers they're consistent, right? no updates, not answering the actual question, burying answers and super long emails or or something drives me crazy, waiting to be told what to do instead of making a recommendation. So which which of these mistakes do you see most often?

Dawn Andrews (46:01)
Yeah, I think the the biggest one is probably not offering a solution, just waiting for somebody to tell you what to do and how to do it. And I've heard some horror stories that I frankly hope aren't true because they're they don't bode well for humanity. But one of them is that you ask an associate to write a

a brief, let's say, P's and A's for a brief. And you're waiting on that and it never comes. And then the conversation happens and you're told, Well, I just didn't know what to do. So I did nothing. I mean that's effectively what the person's saying. I didn't know how to empty the dishwasher, so I just didn't do it. Where does that fly? that it's it you cannot wait

and a lot of people blame this on the helicopter parent generation, and maybe there's something to that, I don't know. but as a professional, you are paid an awful lot of money to demonstrate ability and competence, and you're you're not doing it when you wait for somebody to hold your hand or or lead you around. As an attorney, your job is to hold hands and lead people around. So it's frustrating.

Jason Marsh (47:09)
Yeah, no doubt. All right. So let's let's flip this around now, right? Because I don't think this is all a problem of the young attorney. They're early in their career, they've got a lot to learn. But there's also got to be people that are going to teach and mentor them. So there's a leadership side of this. Now, so let's say a senior attorney wants newer attorneys to communicate better. They can't just get frustrated, when someone misses the mark. They I think they have to be clear about what good communication actually looks like.

And then take it the second step and model it themselves, do the thing that they want other people to do. So what should firms, senior attorneys, leadership in particular be be doing to help newer lawyers just develop these habits?

Dawn Andrews (47:52)
Yeah, so this gets at a a core issue in the practice of law, which is a great rainmaker, a great trial lawyer, somebody who's in AM, the AM law, 100 or whatever isn't necessarily a good people leader. And part of being a good lawyer is being a good people leader. And one of the failings of the legal profession, in my opinion, is a lack of leadership, training, and development.

And being that I'm a coach now who works full-time coaching professionals, many of whom are attorneys, I can tell you with certainty that these this training isn't made available. I recently gave a talk for the Beverly Hills Bar Association on the interplay between ethics and emotional intelligence. And the research research shows that attorneys have some of the lowest emotional intelligence of all professionals. And that's not a a dig on them as people, but it shows you.

what qualities bring people to the law and what qualities are rewarded in the law. And they aren't typically soft skills, even though soft skills bring clients in and soft skills win juries over and soft skills win negotiations. So it it's so critical you're reminding me I I gave this training, I did this workshop on communication, conscious communication for a law firm l last year, sometime.

And we're we're deep into the material. We're doing exercises and breakout groups and all these things. And this senior attorney, I think he was an IP attorney, raised his hand and he's like, Yeah, I don't care about any of this. So what if I just don't care and I'm willing to take the consequences? And I just thought, You are exhibiting in the case I'm making that lawyers lack emotional intelligence. What

Jason Marsh (49:36)
Yeah.

Dawn Andrews (49:37)
is wrong with you? So and he said it.

In a funny way, but we had to have a long talk about why you should care that you lack emotional intelligence and I thought, man, here it is.

Jason Marsh (49:46)
And

and it it's the idea here that lawyers are drawn to the hard skills, right? I want to study the law, I wanna understand it, intuitively, but then feel like I don't need to be able to communicate what I know to my clients or s or sell an idea or pitch an idea or present, a course of action in a particular case.

Dawn Andrews (50:04)
Yeah, I think it's discomfort. I think lawyers, the people drawn to the law and people who succeed in law are kind of brains on sticks. we go around thinking we can power of thought our way through all these issues or use logic through everything. And that just isn't the case. Humans have whole bodies and whole bodies have emotions and moods and we we i we have energy exchange with others and if you're not willing to do

Jason Marsh (50:28)
Yeah, and there's a human element

to all this, right? Because I didn't go

Dawn Andrews (50:29)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Marsh (50:31)
to law school, but when I think of law school, I mean you spend your time, buried, in your books, in the case law, in the stuff you're trying to learn. It isn't, I'm not pitching a client, I'm not communicating with, a partner. You're just trying to learn, the basis of what your career is going to become. But you need all these other skills that I think, and this is why we're talking today.

People don't mention it to you, up until until you're actually in a job and you've got to figure this stuff out. So

Dawn Andrews (50:55)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (50:55)
it is better if like firms can, be clear about the expectations around what they they want to see for updates, responsiveness, or communication styles. Like how how explicit should a firm be? Should they should they build out SOPs? Are these, do they have these in the mentor conversations? Like, where does this stuff

ought to come up.

Dawn Andrews (51:15)
Yeah, I think I think good firms have really clear guidance for their attorneys about response times, for example. So it's, our policy is to respond to a client within 24 hours and or whatever it is, whatever the case may be. and maybe it's more nuanced than that, maybe it's issue dependent or something. but I think more important is to offer like training and development opportunities,

Give people some education, you can improve your emotional intelligence. You can't improve your IQ. So why not work on the thing you can actually make better when that your EQ will bring clients in the door and win over juries and win you negotiations far faster than what you learned in law school when you read about the pernicious Fox or whatever in 1881 real estate case?

Jason Marsh (52:06)
So so what does it look

like when when you talk about mentoring and coaching, what does it look like, or what does good coaching look like when a newer newer lawyer gets it wrong or just doesn't do it the way you want?

Dawn Andrews (52:18)
Yeah.

I mean I think performance coaching i is one thing. and and that can be just some simple kind conversations about the facts of what happened unemotionally, the impact that it had on the firm or the client or the team, and then seeking agreement on how we'll proceed going forward so this doesn't happen again. So dispassionate conversation after the tension of the moment has passed. But when I think about coaching, I think about the type of coaching I do.

Which is spending one on one time or time in a peer coaching circle, helping people understand their own tendencies and where they come from and what they're capable of if they are able to embody the best version of themselves. And that gives them confidence. And confidence is as I mentioned, just a huge part of successful communication.

Jason Marsh (53:13)
Yeah, it really is. So, I think what we're talking about here, i is largely how communication, especially for these younger lawyers, really can become a career advantage, right? And and the bigger point is it's not so much that communication it's not just about avoiding mistakes, but it's how it can actually accelerate a lawyer's career because people start to trust their judgment, which in turn gives them more responsibility.

And then and they just see them as someone who can operate at a higher level. So for a newer attorney, and and I'm trying to sort of wrap up what we're talking about here as we're coming up on the hour, but for a newer attorney who wants to stand out, how much of an advantage is like strong communication and and how that what that can really create for them?

Dawn Andrews (53:56)
I think it's the biggest advantage. I if I were starting my legal practice today, that is the thing I would focus on most. I had this misguided view that you just put your head down, bill a million hours and results will follow, and that only gets you so far because you do need to bring in clients and if you want to go in house, you do need to communicate with business people and exert influence where you lack authority. And that is all that all comes down to communication. That's the only way.

Jason Marsh (54:27)
And and and can that good communication can it compensate for for a new attorney that just simply has less experience early in their career?

Dawn Andrews (54:34)
A hundred percent. I think i I mean, especially if you take litigators into account. I mean my in my experience the best the best litigators were just people with really good people skills, really good common sense, because you can get more information out of your client and that gives you a more compelling story to tell at trial and you can relate to jurors and judges alike because they're people too, and you just can get better outcomes. And I'm not a deal lawyer, but I imagine that that's probably.

true for them as well. so yeah, I think it's the single biggest factor in your success and how how quickly you accelerate if that's what you're into.

Jason Marsh (55:13)
Yeah, I think

I think there's no question about what you're describing there. Even at the highest levels, the the soft skills have to exist because you can always get into the details and nuts and bolts of the deal or the thing that you're working with. but you do have to be able to communicate clearly with people, build rapport, build trust, all of those things. So again, for a young attorney, like what would you say are some of the habits that they can try to cultivate that are gonna make them seem more senior, than their

their years would otherwise, have them be.

Dawn Andrews (55:43)
Yeah. I think the the primary thing is probably self-regulation, Work on your own nervous system, work on your triggers, know yourself really well and have a really solid awareness of who you are and the value that you bring. that doesn't mean that on in your second week on the job you asked to become a partner, however, because I've heard some stories. but

Jason Marsh (56:11)
Week two, really?

Dawn Andrews (56:11)
But that will yeah

that will allow you to come to every situation in a grounded, centered state. And in that state, everything you do is gonna be more impactful. So that's probably the biggest thing. And then just from a tactical perspective, because I realize that's a big, self-discovery issue, from a tactical perspective, be available and communicate your availability.

You can be in a kayak in the middle of Mission Bay when a call comes in, but just answer the call. you can't there are very few places on the planet you don't have cell service these days, unfortunately. Cuba's one of them, by the way, if you need to get away from it all. wherever Jason's at.

Jason Marsh (56:53)
Yeah, you should have my phone. For some reason I never have any cell service. I don't know. But I think I need a new phone. Yeah, except for me. I but okay, so so that's

really that's a really good one. 'cause the the final question I was gonna ask you here is, for a newer lawyer, if they want to improve just one communication habit starting tomorrow, what should it be? It sounds like be available. Is that is that the one? Something else? One A, one B?

Dawn Andrews (57:14)
Yeah. Responsive responsiveness.

I think responsiveness is the big thing. Yeah.

Jason Marsh (57:19)
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing, is it? All right. Well, I'm here with Dawn, Dawn Andrews, and we've been talking about how newer lawyers can communicate in a way that builds trust, earns them more responsibility, and makes them easier to work with. And also what senior lawyers can do to actually teach those skills instead of just expecting everyone to figure it out on their own. here's how you find Dawn, her website, accessleadershipcoaching dot com.

She's on LinkedIn. These links are going to be in the show notes so you don't have to remember them. I'll also include the article that she wrote for the Law Practice Division, Law Practice Today and the American Bar Association. So again, all that'll be in there. But Dawn also has a podcast that I'm a little intrigued to hear a little more about before we go. It's called Workplace Confessions Behind Closed Doors. So tell me, tell me more about that.

Dawn Andrews (58:08)
Okay, so I spent most of my legal career conducting workplace investigations, training others how to do them and leading teams that did them. So I probably conducted a thousand investigations in my lifetime. Great question. You you are so Yeah. Yeah, it is.

Jason Marsh (58:19)
So w what is a workplace investigation? I'm I'm glad I've never been a part of one of those, but is that a bad thing if you're under investigation?

Dawn Andrews (58:29)
So i in most workplaces these days, the the bigger the company the more common.

When an allegation is raised against an employee, the company is obligated legally to look into it. And at the company I worked for for most of my career, we looked into every complaint that came in through what we called our helpline. This was an anonymous phone number you could call or a web address you could submit a complaint to, and we looked into all of them. And there are really specific requirements under California law about how you conduct those investigations. and other states have have followed along.

Jason Marsh (59:03)
And and just to stop

you real quick, what kind of things would people call this helpline and say? W I mean, is this yeah, everything.

Dawn Andrews (59:11)
Absolutely everything.

from, my supervisor is micromanaging me. I see him waiting for me at the door in the morning to make sure I'm not late, to my coworkers having an affair with our supervisor and getting an unfair advantage to

Jason Marsh (59:25)
You ever get

you ever get anything about the break room refrigerator?

Dawn Andrews (59:31)
yeah, a hundred percent. So many of those cases. I put my lactating mothers will put their the milk in there for storage to bring home to their kids and someone will take it? What are they doing with it? Where did it go? They'll steal your sandwich? I mean it's crazy. It's crazy.

Jason Marsh (59:42)
Drinking it, putting it in their coffee. I heard

one where somebody was just taking a bite out of people's, just one big bite out of people's sandwiches. anyway, but I think what

Dawn Andrews (59:53)
Disgusting. Yeah.

Jason Marsh (59:55)
w but when I heard this, workplace confess pot it's called workplace confessions behind closed doors. I'm thinking there's gotta be a lot of fun stuff in there, at least at least from my sick perspective on things.

Dawn Andrews (1:00:03)
Yeah. So yeah, so this this podcast filled

the gap left by my no longer working as a workplace investigator. I sat down and I realized that I didn't miss working in corporate America and I didn't even miss being a lawyer, but I miss talking to people about their jobs and learning more about what goes on at work. And so my best friend and I started this podcast in January and we put out an episode every Friday without fail, we're up to like thirty-eight episodes or something, and we just

Jason Marsh (1:00:29)
Wow.

Dawn Andrews (1:00:30)
We just interview people anonymously about their jobs and we always ask them what's the weirdest, wildest or most unforgettable thing you've ever seen anywhere you've worked? And we have heard some crazy stories. We've interviewed everybody from a medium to a priest to a dominatrix, I mean you name it, we've talked to them and it's it's so fun. So

Jason Marsh (1:00:51)
I

love that. That is a great idea. I'm I'm sitting here thinking like I'm jealous of that idea. I wish I had a podcast. It sounds a

Dawn Andrews (1:00:57)
Ha ha ha ha.

Jason Marsh (1:00:59)
lot more interesting than what I'm doing here. But anyway, thank you so much, Dawn. I I I really appreciate, your time today and everything that you shared. now is there anything else you want to add before we go?

Dawn Andrews (1:01:11)
no, I think that's it. Thank you for having me.

Jason Marsh (1:01:13)
All right.

Yeah, so it's been wonderful. All right. That's Dawn Andrews, everybody. That's gonna be it for today's show. We've got a bunch of new shows coming up. So please stay tuned, check it out, and we will see you next time.

Jason Marsh (1:01:26)
Thanks for listening to the Alpha Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Jason Marsh, and I appreciate you joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with other lawyers who might benefit. You can find more resources and insights on building a thriving law firm at alphalawyer.io or the Alpha Lawyer YouTube channel. Until next time, keep building the firm of your dreams so you can live your best life.