Mastering Google Local Service Ads (LSAs) for Law Firms

0:00 Introduction to Thomas Glasgow and 1122 Marketing

03:15 Why searcher experience is the #1 driver of LSA rank

07:40 Call protocols that “teach” Google which leads you want

11:20 How to use “Rate this lead” to improve lead quality

15:05 Intake do’s and don’ts that boost conversions

18:40 Monitoring and fixing responsiveness scores

22:30 Branded LSA traffic, when it helps and how to measure it

27:15 Timing, budgets, and what “going all in” looks like

32:00 When LSAs are not the right marketing channel

36:10 How Thomas helps firms maximize LSA performance

Jason Marsh (00:00)
On today's show, Thomas Glasgow, founder of 1122 Marketing and a leading expert in Google Local Service Ads for law firms. We'll cover how lawyers can achieve peak LSA performance with a clear step-by-step strategy that includes training Google's AI to send more qualified leads, improving your intake, how to correctly rate leads, and ultimately generate more signed cases.

Thomas Glasgow (00:27)
how do we show Google that your law firm provides the best searcher experience? And so our entire system of running LSAs is designed to influence and show Google that the experience you provide to Google's client or customer, the searcher is better than anyone else because that's what they care about.

when they determine where they rank on the LSA.

Jason Marsh (00:49)
Welcome to the Alpha Lawyer podcast, a show dedicated to exploring what makes law firms thrive. I'm your host, Jason Marsh. Join me as I interview some of the smartest thought leaders and accomplished law firm owners in our space. Together, we'll dive deep into law firm operations, marketing, technology, finance, and everything else you need to build an incredible firm that allows you to live your best life.

Jason Marsh (01:16)
Hello and welcome back to the Alpha Lawyer podcast. I'm Jason Marsh, but today I'm here with Thomas Glasgow. for anyone that's ever felt the frustration of Google local service ads, like I certainly have, I think you're going to like this one. We're going to be talking about how to make these LSAs work.

Thomas recently wrote this great article in ABA's law practice today called, to Train Google LSA AI to Get More Qualified Leads. I'll share that link in the show notes. But before we get into that, Thomas, I want to give you a proper intro here. You're the founder of ⁓ 1122 Marketing. It's an agency that specializes exclusively in managing Google local service ads for law firms. And so great to see you, Tomics. Thanks so much for coming on today.

Thomas Glasgow (02:03)
Yeah, thanks man.

Jason Marsh (02:05)
So, all right, so Google Local Service Ads, right? They started rolling out like to lawyers specifically four or five years ago. And I feel like in those early days, it just felt like kind of shooting fish in a barrel. The leads were good. They were cheap. You could dispute literally almost anything and get a credit. But then sort of like a lot of things these days, you know, with any sort of, as people adopt the product, the price starts going up. The results don't necessarily follow suit.

You can't even, you know, can't even dispute ads anymore. And, you know, the system's changed a bit. And so I know a lot of firms are struggling, you know, with these local service ads. And so I'm excited to talk to you because, you a few months ago, we had a private conversation about your approach. And I feel like I walked away from that conversation thinking like, man, this guy really knows a lot about LSAs and speaks about them in, in, because I feel like I've heard a lot of people tell, do this, do that. And it's all kind of the same.

thing that people are saying and what you had to say was a little bit different. I'm excited to dig into the details with you. So anyway, as alluded to earlier, right, LSA is not really performing like they did a few years ago. What have you been seeing? What kind of trends?

Thomas Glasgow (03:14)
Yeah, well, mean, almost without fail, every lawyer that I talk to tell us the same story of, yeah, when we first got on, we were crushing, we were signing motor vehicle accidents at 300 bucks a case, 200, you know, just like unbelievable. The same cost that she would pay just to get a lead, people were signing cases for that, right? So I mean, we have seen a five to 10 X increase in cost in just five years on LSA. I mean, it was...

Jason Marsh (03:32)
Right.

Thomas Glasgow (03:42)
almost too good to be true when it started and quickly has gotten more expensive as more people came onto the platform and Google also, I'm sure was offering discounted pricing to get people hooked on the product and they have. But yeah, I hear the same thing as like it was great, we've kind of hit a lull, some people have given

they just like this, can't find success there. And I think a lot of the advice that's out there,

that you had spoken about, it's not wrong, right? Like the ways to optimize the profile, you need to answer the phone fast, like you need a lot of photos or like the basic things Google will tell you whether you call or look at their documentation. Like this isn't incorrect. I just think it's incomplete.

it's basic, it's basic. And so, you know, what I try to do is think about what Google wants with local service ads and then

Jason Marsh (04:25)
It's basic.

Thomas Glasgow (04:35)
reverse engineer the system to give them what they want. And so to me, local service ads are trying to solve, Google is using them to prepare for what is now happening, which are two things really.

All of the monopoly issues that they're running into, although they actually had a favorable ruling come out yesterday, some of that in regards to selling off Chrome, which is

Jason Marsh (04:59)
Love that, yeah.

Thomas Glasgow (05:02)
Kind of unbelievable, but I still stand by this claim that I think these monopoly things will continue to be problematic for them, as well as

increase in use of LLMs and alternative search platforms. Google is, because of these two issues, they will lose market share, and they already are losing market share when it comes to search. And so they need a product.

a paid ad product that people really like using and delivers great results, right? With PPC, it's

experience isn't the first thing they're concerned about. What they're worried about is making money. Whereas with LSAs, searcher experience is paramount, right? And we can see this as true where like, if you set a budget of a million bucks on an LSA campaign, you might spend $0 and likely listeners have done something like this, right?

Jason Marsh (05:51)
Yeah,

that's a great point. I want to get into that, but you know, that specific problem bit later, but that's interesting.

Thomas Glasgow (05:55)
Yeah. Well, I think what it

signals

Google doesn't care about making a profit above searcher experience when it comes to LSAs, right? They want to do both. They want to make money and they want to provide a great searcher experience. But with LSAs, like we see with that ridiculously large budget, if you're not doing other things, they won't spend your budget. Whereas with the PPC campaign, if you set that same budget for the same exact job types or practice area,

without a doubt you would spend that million dollars that week,

Jason Marsh (06:24)
and every

they'll find a way to serve you up on anything.

Thomas Glasgow (06:29)
Yeah. And so the question

that we try to answer with our agencies response to how to run LSAs is

how do we show Google that your law firm provides the best searcher experience? And so our entire system of running LSAs is designed to influence and show Google

the experience you provide to Google's client or customer, the searcher is better than anyone else because that's what they care about.

when they determine where they rank

on the LSA.

Jason Marsh (06:57)
So given that, and it's interesting that you say that, drawing the distinction especially between the traditional Google ads, that basically been, I would say, 90 % of their revenue for decades now and have enjoyed a lot of market dominance and search that's sort of eroding.

in terms of the user experience, obviously that's super key with LSAs. So what do you recommend in terms of trying to enhance that particularly as

as Google is able to see it.

Thomas Glasgow (07:26)
so there's the things you'll see commonly discussed like answer that phone lightning quick, right? Very important. That's not wrong. You need to answer that thing super fast. You need to get good reviews into your Google business profile, right? This is first party data that Google is able to pull from people who have had an experience.

with your business, it signals to them that you are continuing to provide a good experience for people in the market. So like these are obvious, they're more widely discussed and they're all true and should be done. But I think to build on top of it, what happens during the

call when someone calls your business from an LSA?

I think the greatest lever any business has to pull to influence how Google understands the searcher experience that people are having when they talk with you. so coupled with how you then complete the feedback survey that they provide, the rate this lead button that is on there.

are ways for you to directly show Google both by what's happening on a call that they're listening to and recording and by the direct feedback that you provide them on showing them that you provide this great search experience and then allowing you the opportunity to further train the AI on what you want and don't want. And so to me, yeah.

Jason Marsh (08:42)
So I just wanted

to say this is the thing that when we spoke, I'm like, this is the thing that I've not heard anyone talking about. Like the importance of what is getting said on that phone call in terms of the transcript the AI is looking at to understand, as you say, the user experience. it a match between what the caller is looking for and what the law firm service offerings are?

Thomas Glasgow (08:47)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (09:07)
and so, yeah, this is the thing I really wanted to drill into because right, know, AI is everywhere. Google's using AI in all sorts of different ways, but particularly when it comes to the calls themselves and how it can affect ranking. So can we talk a little bit about

what you think should be happening on that call, to properly train the system.

Thomas Glasgow (09:27)
Yeah. So let me give you an example that I frequently give. Let's say personal injury law firm, like every other personal injury law firm, motor vehicle accidents are probably your number one thing you're chasing after, So let's say someone, let's just make up a market, Dallas, Texas, searches personal injury lawyer near me, a particular law firm pops up, they call that law

The law firm answers really fast and the intake specialist quickly determines that it is a property damage only call, right? Property damage only.

Normally that law firm is just going to turn that lead down immediately, right? They're going to say, we can't help you. whatever. So what happens if you do something like that is this is what Google sees. They see someone search for a query you wanted to rank for. They displayed you at the top. Someone called you and then you said, we can't help you. Right. For a, for a keyword auto accident lawyer near me that you want to compete for. And so the problem with doing something like this is now we've created this negative association between a keyword we want and.

what you told the caller. And so from Google's perspective, that's a bad searcher experience because now this person needs to go call someone else. So there's a couple of things happening here. Like one, maybe designing a way to leave that more ambiguous so that the system doesn't necessarily think they made a terrible match because in general, you're going to want to appear for that query, right? So a way to conclude that call where the system doesn't, isn't able to ID that you turned it down right off the bat,

then ways that you can then complete the feedback survey so that it can influence the AI how you want. So a lot of the work that we do with LSAs is designing protocols around how people respond and speak with clients or potential clients on the phone so that we can protect.

AI from hearing things we don't want it to hear and to make sure that it can hear things we do want it to hear.

Jason Marsh (11:23)
Yes. So I mean, that's really fascinating, right? And so I think what you described is a great example, right? For an injury firm, particularly looking for MBAs, you're going to get people that are searching for car accident lawyer in whatever area, but as any injury firm knows, some of those people are going to be at fault for the accident. Some of them are not going to have injuries, just going to be property damage, but they still were looking for a property or a car accident lawyer. And so there's alignment there just because it doesn't have all the

the fit in terms of what you would want to acquire that case. What if somebody calls up your, again, you're an auto accident or in whatever city, say somebody's calling from another state or say somebody is asking for, a criminal defense matter or something, and none of these things, you know, you're not advertising in that area. What do you do then?

Thomas Glasgow (12:12)
So the protocol we use is if it, I would say if it looks, smells or tastes like a personal injury case, I want to leave it ambiguous enough on the call so that on the back end, when we go to complete the feedback loops, the way that we complete the feedback loop can be cohesive with what happened on the call. So that's the first guiding principle is we never want to have dissonance between what happens during the call and what is set on that feedback loop, right? Those two things always need to be able to drive or at least have

enough ambiguity so that they make sense with each other, if you're a personal injury attorney and you get a phone call for, a...

weapons charge or a drug charge or something that just like wouldn't ever make sense for a PI and likely didn't match a search query that you want. I think that's fine to reject that right there because you don't want those type of leads. So we want to train the AI for what we want, right? And so if you truly don't want those leads, I think rejecting it and then completing the lead survey and saying very dissatisfied, it's not a job type that we handle is the right way to do that.

⁓ Where I think you need be careful is where

It's like an MVA like we described where maybe it's just soft tissue and you don't want it because it's not catastrophic enough. But if you were to mark it really negatively, you might be sending the wrong signal to the system telling it we never want to see anything like this. Right. So there's a lot of nuance to how you decide how to complete that survey. But I think the important thing is to make sure too that you can leave enough ambiguity on the call so that depending on how you want to rate it.

two pieces are cohesive. ⁓

Jason Marsh (13:52)
So

would it be fair to say, like, let's just again use the injury

Somebody's calling about an auto accident,

they're at fault or there's not really a case to be had there for an injury attorney. Is it, is it a good thing to do? Think about what that person probably searched for.

And if it likely is aligned with what you're offering, but you know, if all the details don't match up to actually have a case you want to acquire to still mark that as a good lead. Because I think that's an area like Google's not really going to have based on a keyword search. this has been the history of even traditional, Google ads. mean, I always

Thomas Glasgow (14:22)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (14:26)
you're going to 25 % of the calls you're going to get are going to line up, no liability issues. There's actually an injury and so on.

The rest are going to be, people looking for an attorney like you, but they're just not going to have all those details. Is that fair, fair to approach it in that way?

Thomas Glasgow (14:40)
It's for sure

trying to understand the intent there. if you think that the keyword that generated the call is a keyword you want to rank

then following this protocol that we're talking about makes all the sense in the world. Yeah.

Jason Marsh (14:53)
And then, and then what about, and this is one thing I've seen, say you're a firm and you have a call service, you have, maybe you have someone that does intake during normal business hours, but overflow roles to a call service, certainly all the after hours, weekends, et cetera, that these people typically are not super well-trained on this type of thing that you're talking about. Oftentimes they're literally just trying to like get the information and essentially say, I'm going to have someone call you back.

Now I could imagine based on what you're describing, say somebody, say you're an injury firm, you're getting a criminal defense case, an intake person's probably not going to just flag that as no, we don't do that. They'll just take the information. And I think that then would give Google a signal. You stayed on the phone for five minutes collecting information, getting all this stuff. that that's totally what they're looking for. And then all of a sudden you go in the system and you're like, this very dissatisfied with this lead. It's like you're saying it doesn't align with.

Thomas Glasgow (15:21)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (15:50)
the signals that are going into the system.

Thomas Glasgow (15:52)
Yeah, it's dissonant. You're saying two different things about what happened on the call and then the survey that you complete. So like Google's using AI to analyze that call and they are creating their own opinion about what's going on there. And then they ask us to give us direct feedback about what's going on. And so we want to be able to...

have the system have a clear understanding of what's happening. And yeah, in order to do that, those two pieces, the call and the feedback, always need to be aligned. so using outside answering services can be tricky with the level of nuance that there is to this. mean, our team, not to be too pluggy, but like one of the things that I think is really important with LSA is to have someone who can listen to the call.

look at the call notes in your CRM or lead management system, and then make a determination as to how to complete that feedback survey. There's a lot of, and you can use tools to analyze the call for you to take out some of this manual work, but there is still a human component where you gotta look at the AI analysis or listen to the call, look at the notes in a CRM, and then decide how to rate that lead. And so,

If you are just blindly rating leads based on the status that you see that lead having in your CRM or something like that, you are likely not providing the best feedback you can provide to

which is gonna negatively impact your campaign.

Jason Marsh (17:18)
Gotcha. Well, okay, cool. Well, I want to get into sort of intake and how to handle, all of that, specifically, but before we do that, I just want to, and the other thing I want to get into is sort of a practical walkthrough of, okay, you get a lead, what should market is, how, like sort of how to go through each step. I think that would be super helpful, but back to intake. Let's talk about that.

Thomas Glasgow (17:35)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (17:39)
we know just in general, right. A good intake is a real difference maker just in, just in signing up more cases and given that caller a good experience. But, but just to talk, but to talk about it in terms of sort of how it's sending that signal back to Google's AI and how you manage that. know you all at your firm have spent a lot of time working on intake and training firms on how to do this. What can you share in terms of that, giving a caller a great experience and giving Google.

what it's looking for specifically on that call.

Thomas Glasgow (18:11)
Yeah, so I mean, we'll install, like I said, that, set of protocols of things we always want to happen on an LSA call and things we don't. And so from just to kind of move forward with it in some, in a bit of a linear fashion, like the first thing you need to do is be able to understand when an LSA is actually calling your business, right? And a lot of people, what we'll find is like, we'll have a call rail number or a call tracking metrics number set up where there's a whisper message to alert.

the intake team. The problem is Google is already running your number through their own tracking number. So we already have like a couple layers of call forwarding with different tracking numbers happening. What frequently happens is that whisper message never even makes it to your intake team. So they're flying blind, not even realizing that it's an LSA call. So one of the first things to do is

Jason Marsh (18:52)
Yeah.

Thomas Glasgow (19:03)
look at that and see if that's happening to you. It likely is.

And if so, what you need to do is you need to ⁓ using whatever your phone service is, like your soft phone or VoIP system or whatever, create a separate phone number in there that then forwards to your intake team. And you can name that number or that DID Google LSA or something so that when your team's device rings, it displays Google LSA. That's the only way to really know before your team answers the call that it's an LSA.

because those whisper messages get cut off frequently. So that's the first thing is like being

Jason Marsh (19:38)
That's a great tip.

Thomas Glasgow (19:39)
so yeah, you can do that. Like, I mean, a lot of people are like on Ring Central or something, right? Like if you go in, if you create a new number or a new queue, as they call it in Ring Central, and then just name that queue Google LSA, and then have it follow all your normal settings, you can just clone them over, right? Like

but having that unique queue.

important. And then, and you can still have your call rail number installed, just forward your call rail number to that need to be ID. So now there's, there's like three layers of ⁓ forwarding, but each one has a purpose, right? ⁓ So it's, I do think that's the right way to set it up from a call flow stamp.

Jason Marsh (20:13)
And all

of that happens like instantly, you all those, you know, three, you know,

Thomas Glasgow (20:17)
the flow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's

no real delay in the call getting anywhere. It's just the front end work of setting up all those things and testing and making sure that it's all built properly on the law firm side. But yeah, once it's set up, the potential client isn't gonna be aware of anything. They're gonna call and it'll call fine. So then once you do that, yeah, there's like we talked about, leaving some ambiguity, not turning it down necessarily on that initial call where

AIs listening, like you wanna have these set of protocols installed, you wanna answer that phone lightning quick, like everyone talks about, that is very important.

then from a intake standpoint, I mean, this is where the battle's won and lost, right? Like, can you close these things? Can you ID them as good cases and get them to sign up right then and there on the phone? Like, intake is everything. And so it's really important to understand what's your...

cost per wanted lead is from LSAs, what's your cost per sign cases, and then what's your conversion rate of wanted leads is. Because this really helps you understand where the problem lies, right? Like is the problem with the quality on the LSA campaign or is the problem, this is true of any marketing channel, right? But like where's the issue? Is it a marketing issue being a lead quality issue that marketing is generating or is it a conversion issue? And so these are all things that

I think all marketers, because they sometimes feel like intake things, right? But I think all marketers should be very concerned with these traditionally, kind of viewed as intake KPIs. I think these should be front and center on every marketer's radar as well, because ultimately that dictates how a marketing campaign performs, right? Like I think that's what's important.

I have a performance marketing mind though, like I'm a really bad brand guy. I'm not good at any of that. So to me, it's like, how much did that thing cost? How much did it cost to sign? Are we signing it? Yes or no? Like it's very binary for me, which I know

necessarily the opinion shared by everybody, but that's just how I think about it.

Jason Marsh (22:11)
Yeah, but that's how it should be, particularly with a direct response channel, digital one, that you can literally track every detail of it. How much did you spend? How much did you earn? What's the Delta and the ROI between those? And that's it, right? Cause it's not really a branding channel. You can do a lot of other things to just get your name and your face and your firm out there if that's what you want to do. But in terms of the call, a couple of questions, right? So we identified like a couple of layers. One, you get a call that's completely unrelated to what you do.

Thomas Glasgow (22:15)
Yo.

Jason Marsh (22:38)
sort of, and then you get a call that is related, but ultimately it's not a case you want. And then of course the call you get, that's the case you're looking for. Like when you get one that's completely not what you want, is it important on the call to explicitly state, hear the person out and say, you know, no, I'm sorry, we don't provide that service. We just literally, so that ends up in the transcript that the AI can read.

Conversely, if it is a case, wonderful, we take, these are exactly the type of cases we handle, tell me more, et cetera. Is it important to get that in the transcript or is that maybe not?

Thomas Glasgow (23:11)
Yeah,

so like, let's use like, if it's a murder, if it's a personal injury attorney who gets a call for a family law case, I think being explicit that you don't want that case is important. If it's a personal injury attorney who gets a call for a case like we talked about where it's maybe soft tissue, but that they don't want to sign, I wouldn't be direct on that call saying we don't want this, right? That's where I would leave some ambiguity to it because

lets you complete that feedback survey how you

Jason Marsh (23:36)
Got it. Yeah. I feel like for a while I would tell people like, not even for the reasons you're describing, I was just like, you know what? Like Google is going to charge you for currently. Like if anybody even mentions like car accident or anything that you're advertising for, just mark it as like a great lead, right? Otherwise you're going to be sending all these bad signals back to Google. And I know it's like painful because you know, you're getting charged hundreds of dollars sometimes

Thomas Glasgow (23:54)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (24:01)
property damage only call, but you kind of have to bite the bullet with that knowing that they did look for what you provided and you want more of that. It's just, just the roll of the dice on sort of if everything, that happened in that caller's experience is suitable to actually acquire the case.

Thomas Glasgow (24:17)
Yeah, I mean, I tell everyone, because we did the same thing when disputing was still allowed, was we didn't dispute and I just, I told everyone like, this is the cost of doing business on the LSA platform. We are running the campaign with our clients' target cost of acquisition of mine. So you should always like know what you want to pay for a case, have that be your ultimate guiding light, right? And if you are within that target, then.

I'm of the opinion as to not to try to over optimize it by saving a couple hundred dollars on a couple leads you don't want to pay for. And if you're too price sensitive for that not to be something that you can stomach, I don't know if LSAs is the right platform for you to be running on because I just don't think you can really be successful on it without that kind of approach.

Jason Marsh (25:02)
Yeah, you do. make a good point because when you're looking at it on a lead by, you do have to have a strong stomach sometimes because you look at what it's costing, you're going, this is, complete junk. Like, what if you just go back to stepping out, let's look at this on a monthly or quarterly or annual basis, how much are we spending? What did we get? And if that falls within, the, the framework of what you're trying to accomplish, you're good. But man, you do have to, you have to stomach some bad leads that, know, sometimes I'm like, man.

Thomas Glasgow (25:12)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (25:29)
Google is screwing some people over here. so anyway, are there any?

Thomas Glasgow (25:33)
definitely screaming people over.

They want to make money. Don't mistake the search experience as being paramount as them saying they don't want to turn a profit. They want to turn a profit and charge you for sure.

Jason Marsh (25:45)
Yeah,

no doubt, no doubt. but in turn, like, before we sort of get away from the intake, are there any sort of big mistakes that you see people making on intake that you just want to say, just whatever you do, just don't do this.

Thomas Glasgow (25:58)
I mean, I think not answering the phone, you'd be surprised at how many, yeah, like accounts you'll see that just have a bad response rate. So I think not answering the phone would be like the lowest hanging thing that's available.

also monitoring your response in the score. you can do this, and this is a really important thing to monitor that I don't think people are checking as carefully as they should on LSA. So Google is using this to determine in part where your ad ranks

The only way to get the data presented cleanly is to tap into the LSA API and you can extract it there, but you can reverse engineer it by doing this. If you have your account in an MCC, if you look at it from the MCC view, if you're not looking at it from the MCC view, you're not going to be able to see this. But if you're looking at it from the MCC view at the overview of all the different CIDs in that MCC, they're going to have a calls column and the connected calls column.

If you simply just take calls divided by connected calls or connected calls divided by calls, you'll have the percentage of calls that are connected and that is the percent that Google is determining or that Google is viewing as your responsiveness rate. If that is less than 90%, you have a problem and it's going to be really negatively impacting your LSA ad rank. So that's a really important metric to

then so the way to influence that, if it's poor,

Well, a couple of things. One, Google's operating, they say on a 90 day trailing score, every 90, like they're clearing the data out every 90 days. The L S the API only passes 60 days worth of data in. So I, it's unclear if they're actually operating on a 60 or 90 day score. Cause they'll only let you pull the previous 60 days.

worth of data out. So somewhere between that 60 and 90 days is where everything continuously reset. So if you're looking to influence that response in the score, you can just wait two to three months and let it clear out, or you can insert more data into the system and you can do this in a myriad of ways by turning on direct business search.

turning on all leads, opening up additional job types. Now that's a whole nother can of worms. You're gonna get a lot of unqualified leads and spend a lot of money on stuff you don't want. But if your only problem on the LSA is that response in the score, that can be a really quick way to improve it so that you don't need to wait those months for the score to reset.

Jason Marsh (28:20)
Wow, that's awesome right there. That's some really cool advice. feel like I'm going to need to listen back to this and just take some notes on this conversation.

right, let's do a practical sort of walkthrough on this. You get the lead notification. You head to the dashboard to review it. And I feel like there's always questions coming up, again, based on the quality of the lead. Let's talk about if.

these I'm always want obviously if the leads are great you know your market is booked you put the name in you put it in the notes great the lead is awesome all of that in terms of like if the leads are not that good specifically say you you get a lead that's literally not in your practice area not what you're advertising for so do even market is booked or do just leave that blank what do you do

Thomas Glasgow (28:49)
Yeah.

Everything is booked. And then where you provide the feedback on the quality of the lead to influence the system is on the survey part. But everything for me gets marked as booked and a name gets plugged in and a little bit of additional information. I don't see any real correlation between a really robust note section and not having one, which is odd because you would think that would be a lever you can pull to provide more data.

We run accounts where that happens and they perform great and then we run accounts where they're putting in really great notes and it doesn't seem to have any bearing on improving account performance. So I haven't seen that played out, although it makes sense that it would, but I just haven't seen it ever reflected in actuality.

Jason Marsh (29:46)
Well, that's good to know because that's always something I've wondered about. How detailed

need to be here when it comes to putting in the notes? Should we put this lead sucks and this is why? just basically, it sounds like really the notes are almost just for you to know what went on, that they're not really waiting what you put in there heavily. And maybe that's because people could manipulate it pretty easily if they did.

Thomas Glasgow (29:56)
Yeah.

Google

says they're for internal use and I generally don't trust what they say about things, particularly when there's a spot for you to provide direct data to them. But based on how I've seen that node section perform, it really does seem like it's just a spot for businesses to add their own nodes to it and it doesn't really impact the performance. The spot to add your nodes is to the...

When you hit the rate this lead button and if you select the other option it'll let you add a note there. That's the spot to provide notes to help influence how you want.

Jason Marsh (30:44)
Okay,

cool. Yeah. So let's walk through that. So, you you get the email, you get to the dashboard, you're to mark it as booked no matter what happens. Drop in the customer name if you have it. Notes, just talked about that. So then now you're waiting to see whether or not the lead gets charged. Once the lead does get charged, it's going to offer you the opportunity to rate this lead, right? Anywhere from what? Very satisfied, very dissatisfied. And so, do you ever find yourself in the middle there? Maybe you talked about some of the ambiguity ones where you booked

Thomas Glasgow (31:03)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (31:13)
it's car accident lawyer, hey, they're at fault. Probably search for you correctly. Is that one of the ones where maybe you go, okay, I'm going to mark that as booked, send that signal. Now when I get into the, charged lead and rate the lead, maybe I put, do you just still mark as very, very satisfied or do you-

Thomas Glasgow (31:28)
Yeah, this

is where the nuance comes in, right? So the first thing is what happened on the call? How was the call left? If they say, we can't help you, you would be ill-advised on the call. It would be a bad decision to mark that survey saying it converted, right? Because now we've created dissonance. So it's important. That's why I like to leave the ambiguity on the call so that when you go to complete the lead survey, you have options, right? So if you left it in...

ambiguous and on the call side of things and let's say it was a an MVA where it was Scalp tissue a little bit of treatment, but she didn't end up signing That I would mark is very satisfied it converted right because that's gonna meet your criteria in terms of someone at fault in your state with injuries or someone not at fault in your state with injuries, right like

You want those type of leads. This particular one, you didn't, but you want Google to send you those. So even if you didn't sign that, I would tell the system, we're very satisfied. Give us more of these please, right? You would be, you would be sending the wrong signal there. Now let's say someone calls and they have

MVA, but it's property damage only. You're also not signing this one, but the property damage only is explicitly discussed.

They say there are no injuries. This is very clear on the call. This one I would not rate positively. I would say we're dissatisfied, right? And then I would tell them why in the other section. This is property damage only. We only handle things with injuries. And this is a recent change in strategy for us going back to about the spring with rating things more negatively. Prior to their update that they had, I'm trying to remember, it was sometime in the spring, Jason.

we would have just rated everything much more positively. They've created a lot more connections across LSAs and the rest of the Google ecosystem. And I think they have more information about searcher intent and what else might be going on with individuals for them to better understand prior to them even typing in the query, what they might be dealing with. Whereas before it seemed like all they really knew was what they typed in for that initial search query. And so you could manipulate the system a little more easily.

Now, I think they have a better sense of if that was truly just a property damage only case before they even called. And if you try to gamify it, just we don't see that working anymore. So for things you truly don't want that are like property damage only, would still leave it ambiguous on the call, because I still think that's beneficial. But then on the survey section, rate it negatively. For things where there's injuries, but you still don't want them, I would rate those positively.

Jason Marsh (33:52)
Right.

Yeah, that's, it's great to know that because there's clearly a lot of nuance here in terms of like what someone may have searched for, you know, specifically what they're looking for on the call and then how you respond to it. And I just wanted to highlight, cause you said something important there, right? We talked about the notes kind of in that initial lead screen, not that important in terms of what you put in there. It's really just for you, but once the leads charge and you hit the rate, this lead

Thomas Glasgow (34:20)
Yo.

Jason Marsh (34:39)
Right. And you say you're dissatisfied. That's when you get an area to put another note and that you're saying is what Google actually will look at to determine what fit there is for you. So, so, so this is important because that seems like you got to make sure you're putting the details in there and how detailed should you be there?

Thomas Glasgow (34:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, every,

yeah, well, so yeah, that's a question. So there's two levels of feedback. So you can provide the very satisfied to very dissatisfied, and then depending on what you select, it will give you a sub reason of why you were very satisfied or dissatisfied. And some of them will just be you select that option, but then there's always that last option where you can say other and then provide some notes. And I like to, I mean, you don't need to write a paragraph.

But being very clear about why you're dissatisfied with it, I think is useful because that the system is reading and taking this feedback, right? So for a property damage only case, we say something to the extent of this person was not injured. We only can help people who are injured or who have died or something to that extent. This was a property damage only case. We do not handle property damage only cases. Like I'd spent a couple sentences.

telling them exactly what you do handle and what you don't handle.

Jason Marsh (35:59)
Yeah, that's great. And it sounds like, okay, so that's really important in terms of lead quality going forward. And assuming you mark that as very dissatisfied, you put that note in there, you don't handle that. How does it actually affect, you know, because sometimes, I mean, I see things get credited, obvious, crazy stuff that isn't remote does not get credit. I'm like, how does this, this thing doesn't even seem to work. It just seems rather random. Like,

Thomas Glasgow (36:18)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (36:21)
what's your take on that and how that works?

Thomas Glasgow (36:23)
Yeah, your goal

on feedback should not be to get a credit. It should be to train the AI. In my experience, you might get up to two credits back a month for negatively rating a lead. like they will give you a couple, but after that you will just get a response that says, thanks for providing your feedback. So do not use the lead survey as a way to try to get money back. You will

one or two leads credited. And then after that, you were just gonna be providing very likely the wrong signals in an attempt to save some money, which is gonna be really problematic for the longevity and the health of your campaign.

Jason Marsh (37:04)
Yeah, so it kind of goes back to what you saying before. You just got to realize you're going to eat some garbage in this and you just can't get hung up on it. It's really all about just training the AI and the system to get you the leads you want to start with. So, all right, well, let's talk about sort of performance, And sort of when, and I think a lot of people fall

into these

sort of issues where it's just simply not working.

And that's either going to be one of two things, right? Either you're just not getting any leads. Like you said, you could set your budget in a million dollars. You're not getting leads or you're getting plenty of lead flow, but they all suck. mean, I feel like I've seen both of those things and like, is what do you do about that? Can you reverse any of that poor in either of those areas?

Thomas Glasgow (37:48)
Yeah, well it's gonna take a couple months too, because remember you're operating on that 60 to 90 day-ish data set that Google's pulling from. So the first thing to remember is like, because you go in on day one, or the first day of we're gonna rate these leads, they're gonna do everything right, like you're likely not gonna see an overnight result, right? Like it's not quite as...

It's slower than like a traditional lead gen program where you like turn on and start getting leads day one and it's much faster than SEO. It's kind of like this in between timeline, right? It's going to take a couple months. But yeah, then you should, so, the levers you have to influence that quality are those

the feedback that you provide, what you do on the call. mean, those are the controlling levers that we see are most impactful when it comes to influencing lead quality. So.

throughout or over time doing those things properly will help influence the lead quality. Now, there's a couple of things that we see more often than you would think on campaigns that are also just providing bad lead quality and these are, they just have job types turned on that they don't really want. So maybe they're personal injury and they have premises and med mal turned on and they don't want either of those and those are less competitive.

So Google's going to send you the less competitive ones if you tell them you want them before they send you anything else. So like the first thing would be look at your settings and your profile and

make sure you actually are targeting the things that you want. Low hanging fruit, but we see it for sure. And then do you have all leads turned on and do you have direct business search turned on? So all leads means you'll appear for literally any lawyer query that someone types in. So if you're a personal injury,

and someone types in, lawyer near me, you will rank for that. And you'll get calls for everything, right?

Jason Marsh (39:39)
So

it sounds like you're saying make sure that is not turned on.

Thomas Glasgow (39:42)
The only reason to turn that on would be if you have, you truly want calls for everything. You're a practice that handles everything or you refer it to, like there might be an instance, we don't run it for a single client. So I don't, can't really think of a common one. The only time to turn it on for a short term would be if something catastrophic happened to your responsiveness score and you're a high volume firm and you need to quickly solve that problem with a lot of lead volume. Maybe you're doing.

six, seven, 800 leads a month on LSAs. And over the weekend, something on your phone flow or your call flow broke and you missed 50 calls. If you need to fix that responsiveness score, turning on all leads can let you do that quickly because you can drive in another 50 calls that day. Now you're going to pay Google for all of those calls and they're not going to be things you want, but it will help.

outweigh the negative of all those missed calls. So there's a place for it from

issues standpoint, but from a generating quality lead standpoint, I see all leads to be pretty useless.

Jason Marsh (40:47)
And then, okay, so

that's a good hack in terms of sort of fixing that and how you might utilize that. The other one you mentioned, around like your brand. I've heard different people talking about this. It does seem insane to me that you're going to spend hundreds of dollars for someone that's literally searching for you when I think you could do better with just make sure you're advertising for your own brand and regular Google ads where you can pay a few dollars for that click.

Thomas Glasgow (40:57)
Yeah.

Jason Marsh (41:13)
What's your take on that? And maybe there's some use cases around like when to and when to not use

Thomas Glasgow (41:16)
Yeah,

I'm not always opposed to it and here's why. It's multifaceted. One, if you want to be ranking number one for your own brand, the only way to guarantee on Google, the only way to guarantee you can do that is by running direct business search on LSAs because it's going to rank in the number one spot. If you're running PPC for your brand and a large competitor,

in market wants to bid on your brand name, they're likely going to outbid you, right? You're not going to be willing to spend $700 on a PPC branded campaign for your own brand, but the big law firm down the street might be willing to do that. And

only way to protect your brand name with certainty is to run direct business search on LSA. So if that's important to you, then that's the reason to do it.

I think it's really important if you're going run this strategy to make sure that

of acquisition, one, to have a baseline for what your cost of acquisition is on an LSA before you try to.

Jason Marsh (42:12)
Yeah. Cause it's going to, it's

going to increase it, right? Cause you're getting calls.

Thomas Glasgow (42:17)
or it's going to go down because your qual like if you're really niche in your market and all the calls you get are for this one thing and like they're now all calling your LSA, your cost of acquisition might go down because your, your lead quality might be increasing. Right. So it can go either way. So you need to know what it is

Jason Marsh (42:33)
Yeah, great, great way to think.

Thomas Glasgow (42:37)
and then you need to see what it is for the LSAs, but then also see what's your

Average or your blended cost of acquisition is for all channels to get to let you get a sense of how it's impacting you Holistically, right? So it it could be positive or it could be negative So I don't I don't just always write it off as this is a bad idea I think you need to be able to look at the data before During and after and then isolate your your blended costs and your LSA costs to have a sense of if it's helping or hurting

Jason Marsh (43:05)
Thomas, this is the most nuanced answer to that I've ever heard and by a lot. swear I've heard other people talk about this

Thomas Glasgow (43:09)
Hahaha.

Jason Marsh (43:13)
and they just frame it as bad. Don't do it. It's a way Google's stealing your money. But now I can see there's a strategy around it. And particularly two things, right? One, sometimes LSAs appear way above the regular Google ads. So even if you're advertising there and you're winning there, they may not see it.

Thomas Glasgow (43:16)
Yeah!

Jason Marsh (43:34)
And then the other thing is, if you're a firm that's spending a lot of money building awareness in your market, whether it's billboards or Facebook ads or whatever, you're probably gonna have a lot more branded search queries and you do wanna make sure you're peering at the top and winning that and making sure you're surfacing number one. So yeah, I can see that. And then at the end of the day, you're just gonna do the math on everything and make sure it all shakes out.

Thomas Glasgow (43:59)
Yeah, I mean, my thought is like

the big brands, right, who are doing a lot of branding and you want to capitalize on it, is it not worth the extra couple hundred bucks when someone searches for your brand to make sure that they actually see you there and call you? Like you've done all this work in the market.

to establish your brand and then when they run the brand query to have four competitors outrank you because their SEO is better or they wanted to pay more to buy your brand. Like, would you, if you're spending millions and millions a year on TV and billboards, would you not want to spend the couple hundred extra to make sure

lead comes home to you that really, know, like nothing works in a silo anymore, right? Like we're working with everything. And even though LSAs are a lead gen performance kind of based marketing, like they still are impacted by your other marketing efforts. And so I think that's a way that they can work in tandem, but you gotta know the numbers, right? So I would never just say it's good or bad. It depends. If you wanna run that strategy, know the pros and cons and have the data to make an informed decision on it.

Jason Marsh (44:56)
Yeah, of course, that makes so much sense. So yeah, so basically if you have good brand awareness, you're investing in that, probably makes sense to continue that in LSA. If you don't, then that might be not the most cost effective way to spend those

right, question. Yeah.

Thomas Glasgow (45:11)
One more real quick point on

that, Jason, that I think is important.

Google is running, your listeners and your accounts probably don't have this yet, because I've only seen it on like two accounts, but they're running a test where you can isolate how much it costs to get a branded lead versus a non-branded lead right now, and you can see that in your dashboard on your reporting. And we have a couple clients that are part of this beta right now, and what we see is it's actually about 50 % of the cost to get a branded query. So if you're normally paying $250 for...

you just see that as your cost per lead on the platform, you're likely only paying about 125 for those branded ones. So I do think that's a check in the reason to run branded is they appear, even though you don't see them broken out that way, Google on the backend is actually charging you less for those branded queries, which is interesting.

Jason Marsh (46:02)
That shocks

me that Google would even do that, but that's still great to know because that does seem like the fair and reasonable thing to do, which as we'd said, I think we both share a healthy skepticism of Google and sort of how they operate.

Thomas Glasgow (46:15)
Well, what I think they're setting us up

LSAs are gonna continue to take the place of Google business profiles and they're gonna continue to try to monetize what would have been GBP traffic with LSA traffic. And so they wanna be able to charge you for it but not make it so unpalatable that you just don't run it, period, right? So I think they're trying to find that sweet spot of how much can we charge someone for a lead that they used to get for free, right? You were paying a lot for SEO, but for free in terms of Google being able to monetize it. And so yeah, I think that's why you see the discount thing. And this is true too with like the badge, I don't know if you saw

this news, they're essentially getting rid of any sort of ID badge on LSAs or screen. They're getting rid of their Google guarantee for lawyers never had it, but for other service areas. And I think this is all in an effort to make it seem even more native and to be able to continue charging people for what they want it to look more like a Google business profile. And then they want to be able to

that. And so I think we'll see this trend continue more and more and more. There's going to be less and less free leads from Google.

Jason Marsh (47:18)
shocker, right? So

anyway, I do want to talk, I want to get into sort of the, before we wrap it up, get into the future of LSA, but just one more small tactical thing in terms of the settings, setting up at the campaign, specifically when it comes to your geo targeting, right? I've heard different things like, you know, start broadly or do it, you know, like, sort of what's your approach. And I've heard, of course, people say, you know, only vote, like maybe your criminal defense attorney, just focus on the zip codes that are more fluent, can afford your services like

Thomas Glasgow (47:36)
See ya.

Jason Marsh (47:46)
But what's your general approach to that?

Thomas Glasgow (47:48)
I don't think like if you're focusing on certain areas and you see that certain Geos sign at a much higher rate or converted a higher rate particularly for non-contingency work that's a real consideration.

put that aside. Outside of that, don't think anyone really has any data to back up that their geo-targeting strategy is the right one. We run different geo-targeting strategies for different firms in different markets, and that happens to be the right one for them in that market.

Jason Marsh (48:10)
Yeah.

Thomas Glasgow (48:18)
So sometimes we'll a statewide campaign. We'll just run it statewide. Sometimes we'll take a statewide campaign and we'll run it with the counties only, right? Like, mean, it's just, it truly depends. I will say a bug that I have seen and it's somewhat of a persistent bug. It doesn't happen every account, but it's, it's lingered for, for a long time is

Sometimes like if you're targeting counties you won't appear for a search where someone searches by zip code or vice versa or something like that. So you need to literally just pull out your phone and search using different geo modifiers to see if you're appearing for all the things. Because sometimes you'll like you'll appear when you run it for the city but won't appear when you run it for the county in that city. And so then that can help inform the right geo targeting strategy for you in terms of whether you're using county.

your zip or state or how you need to play with that. But there's no rhyme or reason to it. We've had all the different permutations of that that happened where like it's just some trial and error to find out what the right one is for that particular client and or market.

Jason Marsh (49:23)
Yeah, because it feels like it can be tricky if you're doing state, you're doing county, you're doing zip, you're you know, literally names of, the towns or cities. It's just like, what do you do them all and in some fashion. So it sounds like.

Thomas Glasgow (49:30)
Yeah.

I'll generally

start with like the broadest.

we can and then see how it's performing and then get more narrow in focus from there. So if someone tells me they're willing to run a statewide campaign, I'll just run it statewide and then just see how it's ranking and then adjust from there. But that's kind of like the base I'll do, which I think some people think is like too simple and they want to think there's additional ways they can add value, but like sometimes simple is fine. And generally that works pretty well.

Jason Marsh (50:03)
Yeah, because I think I heard someone once saying the broader you're advertising, like the better it is, like do it by county as opposed to just doing every zip in the county. But kind of like to your point, you got to look and make sure you're actually surfacing. Maybe there's some sort of bug there. But all right, before we get into the future, one last question. What if you're not getting you run in a campaign, you're spending, you you're you're racked up your budget. You've done all the things and setting the account up, but you're simply not getting any leads. What do you do about that? Is there anything to do about

Thomas Glasgow (50:33)
Yeah, I mean you got to get some sort of volume into the system and so there's a couple ways you can tackle it.

But yeah, the trick is getting some sort of volume into the system to give the data, to give the system some sort of data to process, right? And so Google will have ways where they like do this for you. Like if you've ever noticed sometimes maybe there's a competitor like that's ranking on top of you that you've never seen on LSAs before and they're there for like half a day and then they drop off again, right? Like Google will insert some tests themselves into the system to give people these opportunities. And then when your opportunity rises, you got to really capitalize on it, right?

and do all the things you need to do and take advantage of it. But yeah, that can be a tricky part to it in terms of getting that volume into the system.

Jason Marsh (51:19)
Yeah, cool. Cause I know lots of people have that exact problem. So, all right, let's go back to the future of LSA. where, where do you, cause I feel like when I originally spoke to you, this was, for different reasons, but was the question that was very much at the top of my mind is where do you see LSA going in the next, I don't know, few years as an ad product, specifically for Google. And then in the light of Google search dominance is waning to a degree with, AI and competition like

platforms like ChatGPT, what do you see happening there? Not that any of us know exactly.

Thomas Glasgow (51:51)
Yeah, my crystal ball.

Well, I think no one knows, so don't trust anyone as the gospel here for sure. But I think my take on LSA is kind of like we talked about the top. It is Google's response to these things. so I, because it prioritizes searcher experience over profit, right? That's the, that's the first thing that they're leaning on to signal ad rank. And so we're to influence ad rank. And so

To me, LSAs is the response to those threats. And so I continue to think that they will keep doubling down on LSAs and pushing it as their primary product for local service businesses. And I think we're seeing this continue to play out by the virtue of it still being the number one spot on Google. They're inserting it into the local section now and the map listings.

They are getting rid of the badges and things like that to make it look even more native so they can still charge you for it. And it's the only product they have that takes all this first party data that they can't get anywhere else from the calls and from the feedback from the users in terms of reviews and things like that and the lead survey. it just is the only thing that they have.

Jason Marsh (52:43)
Yeah.

Thomas Glasgow (53:01)
that allows them to gather all this data to help inform how their customers, their users are being taken care of. And so that's always going to be important to Google and even more so as competition increases. So they might come up with something better than LSAs to do this in the future, but I think for the next three to five years, LSAs is where they're going to be pushing.

Jason Marsh (53:26)
And then, and then in terms of like pricing, right? Cause we talked at the beginning, you remember the days leads were, you know, 30 bucks, you sign a client 300 bucks, now leads are, know, two, three, four plus a hundred dollars, depending on the practice area of the market. gotta believe that number will still continue to climb because I think some of the, these local service ads are probably cannibalizing, the traditional Google ads, right? Cause they're just placing them higher on the results pages.

Thomas Glasgow (53:32)
Yeah.

For sure.

For sure. Yeah. You're going to see costs continue to increase. I think we have slowed down in the rate at which they're increasing, right? Like over the last year and a half, we've seen increases, but not like 100, 200 percent like we were saying in the first call video. So I mean, Google is going to continue to see how much money they can milk out of people for sure. So yeah, it'll keep getting more expensive, but I don't think that...

Jason Marsh (54:09)
Yeah.

Thomas Glasgow (54:21)
the exponential growth we had seen in the first three years.

Jason Marsh (54:25)
Yeah, cool. All right. Well, before we start wrapping up here, I just want to kind of just to say like for any lawyer firm that's listening, running LSAs or maybe thinking about running, I know you mentioned answering the phone quickly. What are some of the other sort of simple things they can do just to make their campaign at least run modestly good?

Thomas Glasgow (54:46)
Yeah.

is kind of a non-answer, but I think like there aren't, there aren't simple fixes to LSAs. LSAs work well if you're going full steam ahead and doing everything right, or they just don't work very well. Like the, that's why the firm, like if you're searching your market, it's the same five or six firms that you see at the top every time. And then everyone else is sitting below and they're not getting calls. So there is no like,

Jason Marsh (54:50)
I love non-answers.

Thomas Glasgow (55:14)
one or two like little tweaks that are going to give you success. It's doing like everything that we talked about with particular focus on what happens during the call and how you complete the survey. And those are not like, you can just go and do that little thing. Like that's really developing systems and processes and then having someone, whether it's internal or a vendor you partner with to like actually do that work because to go in and do all that, like it takes time and work. And so

that's, that's where you win the battle. if LSAs, and I tell, I tell people this all the time, Jason, like LSAs aren't the right platform for every lawyer. Like some, if you're listening to this and you're like, this sounds like too much money and too much time, LSAs probably aren't the product for you. Like you shouldn't run them. Just stop, stop trying. You know what I mean? Like, I think that's an okay thing. Like not every product is for everyone, but if you are someone who wants to be aggressive and looking to grow.

and want to have and see the value in LSAs and are committed to making LSAs part of your marketing mix, then going all in on them is the way to find success. Like kind of being tepid, you'll continue to have mediocre or no results with it.

Jason Marsh (56:27)
Yeah. So that's interesting to go all in. so, I guess, for someone that hasn't even started an LSA campaign yet, but they're thinking about it, realistically, what should they be thinking around in terms of how much to spend and being, how long will it take? And really start seeing some good results, like how much patience should they have before they should determine this is a fit or it's not.

Thomas Glasgow (56:40)
Yeah.

Yeah, I tell everyone by the end of month four, if you've done everything you need to do right and you're not seeing the results that you're hoping to see in terms of primarily cost of acquisition, then there's probably something else going on that's broken or your target cost of acquisition, just not one that you're gonna be able to achieve with LSAs. So if you go in full Monty for four months doing everything,

that you need to do and you're not seeing the results that you want, you gotta change what you're doing or your results are not in line with reality in terms of things that can be produced from an LSA campaign.

Jason Marsh (57:27)
And is there a certain amount of money? And I imagine this obviously is going to vary from practice area to market and.

Thomas Glasgow (57:32)
Yeah,

it depends on the market. I primarily run personal injury campaigns. I think if you can't spend 10K a month on an LSA, you're going to have a hard time being successful. Our more successful campaigns are spending a lot more than that. And I don't say that in a self-interested way. We charge a flat fee. So if you spend 10K or 150K, I don't care. I get paid the same thing, but I just...

It's just not enough volume to put into the system in terms of data for Google to process to understand they're going to have someone who's spending a lot more than you in the market and it's going to give them a lot more certainty about the type of service that they provide and certainty that they're going to pay their invoice and bill, Like, so if you can't, if you can't get to at least a 10 K spend in personal injury and in some markets, a considerable amount more, I think you're going to have a tough time competing on LSAs.

Jason Marsh (58:25)
Yeah, good to know. Well, thanks, man. This has been super helpful. I feel like I just want to go back and re-listen to sort of all, because I think we talked about a lot of really important details and nuance to these campaigns, because at first glance, LSA seems like there's not a lot of levers you can pull there, the ones you can are really important, right? So anyway, thanks for all of this, man. I really appreciate it.

Thomas Glasgow (58:41)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. It was fun. Thanks for having me.

Jason Marsh (58:50)
Yeah, no doubt. All right. So I'm here with Thomas Glasgow and we've been talking about how to really maximize the performance of Google local service ads, often a very frustrating channel for a lot of firms, but you can find Thomas at his website. His firm is

And there you can book a meeting with Thomas, get a free audit. He'll do a screen share with you in real time and sort of diagnose what's going on with your campaign, whether you work with them or not, try to give you some insight, ⁓ actionable insights and so forth. I'm also going to drop Thomas's calendar link in the show notes, connect with Thomas on LinkedIn. And of course I'll be including the article that he wrote for the ABA law practice today publication as well. Thomas, anything else you want to add in there?

Thomas Glasgow (59:38)
No, don't think so. I you covered it all. It was fun. Thanks for having me, Jason.

Jason Marsh (59:41)
Yeah,

you got it, man. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. Take care, Thomas.

Thomas Glasgow (59:45)
Thanks, man.

Jason Marsh (59:46)
Thanks for listening to the Alpha Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Jason Marsh, and I appreciate you joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with other lawyers who might benefit. You can find more resources and insights on building a thriving law firm at alphalawyer.io or the Alpha Lawyer YouTube channel. Until next time, keep building the firm of your dreams so you can live your best life.